"Too many NRL teams in Sydney "Gallop.

[_Johnsy]

and the only 2 sides you have in the black both received massive funding from their leagues clubs to keep them above water, $4 million and $5 million respectively, cut that funding back and both would be in massive trouble…


Brisbane - Profit: $1.8 mil
Newcastle - Profit: $813,000
Dragons - Profit: $500,000
Bulldogs - Profit: $261,467
Gold Coast - Profit: $100,000 estimate
Roosters - Profit: $1,350
Wests Tigers - Profit/loss: nil
Parramatta - Profit/loss: nil
Penrith - Profit/loss: nil
Canberra - Loss: $127,000
Cronulla - Loss: $286,000
Warriors - Loss: estimated at $600,000 a year.
North Qld - Loss: $776,568 (To end 2005)
Melbourne - Loss: $781,798
Manly - Loss: $1.1 million (2006) - estimated loss $250,000 (2007).
Souths - Profit: not available

But they do receive that assistance, so your point is void of any relevance.

 

[mattystans000]

Who would agree with the following setup in NSW: (Just my little vision, check intl section for full post - [2017 thread])

NSW: (6)

Sydney City Rabbitohs - Sydney Football Stadium
Newcastle Knights - Energy Australia/Bluetongue
St. George Illawarra Dragons - OKI/WIN

These cover the 3 major areas that a National Competition requires to be successful in NSW.

Parramatta Eels - Parra
Penrith Panthers - CUA
Canterbury Wests Bulldogs - Leichardt/Belmore/Campbelltown

This covers the west of greater sydney and holds AFL at bay, even if it is an empty threat. It also accounts for a large part of suburban Sydney.

Alternativley,

Parramatta-Penrith Eels - Parra/CUA
Canterbury Wests Bulldogs - Leichardt/Belmore/Campbelltown
Central Coast Bears - Bluetongue

Relocation of Sydney Clubs is a big NO IMO, it is better to give an area their own team identity rather than have a sydney-centric organization f**k the region over and play less games than they do in sydney.
Sydney should just face the fact some clubs need to be culled for the good of the game, the clubs are survived in Premier League and allow for the game to become National, Sydneysiders can't just have it all to themselves.

Roosters, Cronulla and Manly fold and make way for new franchises, the Organization's can take over new franchises easy but shouldn't force an old identity on a new area. WA already has a team making the right steps through the JB Cup, moving into QLD Cup and then into NRL.

Just my Opinion, Wellington and SQ will have franchises in 2011, After them will be Perth and either a 5th QLD side or Adelaide. Port Moresby should be looked at along with a NT side and a 6th/final QLD side, eventually - 15 years.
Just so you understand Sydney, the Rabbitohs are finacially secure with PHAC and RC now owning them, they won't be able to fold for a long time coming, and with 1/2 a NZ test squad, they'll bring crowds big time, unlike the roosters at current.

 

[Galeforce]

Matt,
you have outlined why you thing Souths will not fold and are strengthening , so WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU SO DUMB to think that after all the Souths struggle to survive they would then join with Roosters , at a time souths are strengthening. Sydney city Rabbits.
SOUTHS were KICKED out illegally because they would not join with Roosters or Tigers before , they have won back in the hard way .
For better or worse , Souths will not merge or move. GET IT!!
The reason Piggins got booted was that he did not have vision to run a successful club, the reason he lasted so long , was that he was uncompromising on souths survival .

 

[Galeforce]

Re Roosters , they can either move to Gosford , where they should go in my view or move to Perth , where they change their name to Perth City Roosters or just keep going over the GAP or they could become a feeder club for Souths in their future . Their call.

 

[mattystans000]

Matt,
you have outlined why you thing Souths will not fold and are strengthening , so WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU SO DUMB to think that after all the Souths struggle to survive they would then join with Roosters , at a time souths are strengthening. Sydney city Rabbits.
SOUTHS were KICKED out illegally because they would not join with Roosters or Tigers before , they have won back in the hard way .
For better or worse , Souths will not merge or move. GET IT!!
The reason Piggins got booted was that he did not have vision to run a successful club, the reason he lasted so long , was that he was uncompromising on souths survival .

If you read what I outlined... I never said that Souths would merge with the Roosters, I in fact even stated that the ROOSTERS would be one of 3 Sydney clubs to FOLD and make way for others. Please don't tell me you think the one Sydney City club should still be called South Sydney, otherwise, I don't know how you managed to think i stated that Souths merge when I don't even use the word MERGE in my post... SO PLEASE READ THE POST BEFORE YOU CRITISISE A PERSON'S OPINION!!!

 

[t-ba]

Why would a club called 'Sydney City' Be based at Telstra Stadium? Why, in this insane world, would the Dragons still be based at Oki?

You have no grasp of Sydney at all do you?

 

[mattystans000]

Why would a club called 'Sydney City' Be based at Telstra Stadium? Why, in this insane world, would the Dragons still be based at Oki?

You have no grasp of Sydney at all do you?

Alright, sorry I mixed up SFS with Telstra, but why on Earth wouldn't the St.George Illawarra Dragons - My Team - play out of OKI Jubilee, the ground which they've played at since the beginning, if you want them playing all games at WIN then call them the Illawarra Steelers...

Rather than nitpick at the small minor details, discuss the opinion of what should happen in NSW - something that isn't even real, yet... - or stop bi***ing about insignificant details.

 

[LeagueXIII]

If this were to happen...I'll be at the soccer.

 

[LeagueXIII]

How about we stop predicting the future and set about doing everything we can to ensure ALL clubs survive.

 

[Follow Me Up To Carlton]

Saints have played at Jubilee since the early 50s I believe.

Before that they played at other grounds in Hurstville and Arncliffe.

 

[mattystans000]

How about we stop predicting the future and set about doing everything we can to ensure ALL clubs survive.

How are you going to do that when Gallop himself is the one who said there are too many clubs in Sydney, you either rally to give him the boot and get a sydney-centric in or you try to convince another 10,000 people for every sydney club to turn up every weekend, that'll be 90,000 people you need per weekend.

Consider a hypothetical about sponorship dollars. If there were say $10m in sponsorship to go around sydney, each club may expect to get $1.11m, but if you reduce sydney to 5 teams, the fight for sponsorship could see the pot increase to maybe $12.5m, that means each club could expect to get $2.5m. Of course the numbers mightn't be right but the concept is what you should consider, and part of this point is that there is more to the club situation in Sydney than the fans, a lot more happens behind the scenes in terms of business and staying afloat whilst turning in a large profit every year.

 

[griff]

Consider a hypothetical about sponorship dollars. If there were say $10m in sponsorship to go around sydney, each club may expect to get $1.11m, but if you reduce sydney to 5 teams, the fight for sponsorship could see the pot increase to maybe $12.5m, that means each club could expect to get $2.5m. Of course the numbers mightn't be right but the concept is what you should consider, and part of this point is that there is more to the club situation in Sydney than the fans, a lot more happens behind the scenes in terms of business and staying afloat whilst turning in a large profit every year.

But the concept is completely wrong. There is not a fixed amount in sponsorship to go around rugby league teams in Sydney. If there was, then yes if there were less clubs would all get a larger slice of the pie. But your premise is completely wrong, there is not a fixed amount of sponsorship to go around rugby league teams in Sydney.

Instead, companies may decide to sponsor AFL, soccer, rugby union, cricket, netball, or start a charitable foundation, or buy TV ads, or radio ads, or giant billboards, or posters at train stations, or direct mail, or any of a million and one other things they might spend their money on.

They sponsor rugby league because they see there are a lot of people in Sydney who like it. If a club was axed or merged and the thousands of supporters gave up on rugby league all together, and instead went to the AFL or soccer or rugby union, or went to the movies, or the opera, then the companies (and their millions in sponsorship revenue) are going to follow them. They aren't going to switch to another rugby league team.

Therefore all shrinking the supporter base in Sydney would do is shrink the sponsorship base. We should be increasing the supporter base.

 

[t-ba]

Alright, sorry I mixed up SFS with Telstra, but why on Earth wouldn't the St.George Illawarra Dragons - My Team - play out of OKI Jubilee, the ground which they've played at since the beginning, if you want them playing all games at WIN then call them the Illawarra Steelers...

Since the beginning? :lol:. Maybe you should check your clubs history out...And your future. Because everyone outside of the club knows that all roads lead down the Bulli Pass...

And if the The Dragons want to survive in Sydney, they're going to need a ground capable of holding more than 18k, because simply put, it will not cut the mustard. Manly also has this problem.

Rather than nitpick at the small minor details, discuss the opinion of what should happen in NSW - something that isn't even real, yet... - or stop bi***ing about insignificant details.

Your idea is ludicrous. You are aware that the Northern Suburbs of Sydney are home to 800,000 of the Nations wealthies people right? It's bad enough that the North Shore has no coverage, but you would completely kill of professional RL north of Sydney Harbour? and that's just the start. What you propose will simply wipe out a massive chunk of Rugby Leagues support in Sydney, and with it the corporate sponsorship that drives this game.

Seriously, it is not even worth anyones time addressing the massive amount of issues in your proposal.

 

[LeagueXIII]

How are you going to do that when Gallop himself is the one who said there are too many clubs in Sydney, you either rally to give him the boot and get a sydney-centric in or you try to convince another 10,000 people for every sydney club to turn up every weekend, that'll be 90,000 people you need per weekend.

Consider a hypothetical about sponorship dollars. If there were say $10m in sponsorship to go around sydney, each club may expect to get $1.11m, but if you reduce sydney to 5 teams, the fight for sponsorship could see the pot increase to maybe $12.5m, that means each club could expect to get $2.5m. Of course the numbers mightn't be right but the concept is what you should consider, and part of this point is that there is more to the club situation in Sydney than the fans, a lot more happens behind the scenes in terms of business and staying afloat whilst turning in a large profit every year.

Gallop lost me ages ago he offers bandaids and his main concern is seeing that News get their cash. Remember he said that channel nine had to broadcast games into Melbourne at a certain time, the same main that said we can only sustain 14 clubs. He plays to the agenda of news.

The logic that by merging or moving clubs means that there is more for everyone else is flawed and basically BS. Earlier I said in 1994 St.g and Illawarra between them averaged 23,500 today as a combined team they average 10,500. See on paper it looks good but in reality it doesn't. You are toying with the emotional attachment people have with their team.
I use to buy RLW every week, did so for near on 20 years, then they changed it to some trendy little publication looking for a new market, I haven't bought it since. Even though they went back to something similar, they had got me out of the habit and cut the tie I had to it.

 

[fourplay]

If Gallop had sold the NRL tv rights for its real value then the NRL could probably afford to add another team into Sydney, thats what a farce it is!!!

 

[mattystans000]

Since the beginning? :lol:. Maybe you should check your clubs history out...And your future. Because everyone outside of the club knows that all roads lead down the Bulli Pass...

Fair enough, i should've counted in their time at Hurstville Oval ,but honestly, do you still believe anyone thinks of Hurstville instead of Oki Jubilee when they talk about the St. George Dragons? And why would a merged entity that has its base in both St. George and Illawarra move to solely reside in Illawarra unless the NRL told St. George to F**k Off?

Your idea is ludicrous. You are aware that the Northern Suburbs of Sydney are home to 800,000 of the Nations wealthies people right? It's bad enough that the North Shore has no coverage, but you would completely kill of professional RL north of Sydney Harbour? and that's just the start. What you propose will simply wipe out a massive chunk of Rugby Leagues support in Sydney, and with it the corporate sponsorship that drives this game.

Seriously, it is not even worth anyones time addressing the massive amount of issues in your proposal.

So why did you in the first place, it wasn't intended to be an argument, its a discussion of opinions.

Sure, Manly and the Northern Suburbs of Sydney may be home to 800,000 rich people, but how many people are turning up to Manly home games? 14.000 That's 1.75% of all those rich people per fortnight (every home game). The same as any other Sydney Club. The club itself has lost $1.1m last year and a $1/4m this year... All those rich people surely do the trick keeping Manly the constant Profit Maker... Your argument has no basis, they pay the same price for the ticket don't they, why should the rich deserve a team so close to Sydney?

Manly
End of June 2007
Total revenue: $11 million
Sponsorship: $2.9 million
Gate takings: $1.5 million
Leagues club grant: $470,000
Loss: $1.1 million last year; estimated loss $250,000 this year.

The Dragons this year have only pulled an average of 10,000 but that's due to a large form slump from the club. But it's only 4000 short of all the rich people of North Sydney who have a team currently running 2nd... IIRC Oki is getting another upgrade to 22,000 but i may be wrong. The Dragons survive the cull for being connected with Illawarra, whether they would if not being a merger, i couldnt say. Another point to consider is that the Dragons always draw large crowds from the Brisbane people, more potential gate takings.

Just to point out some flaws in your argument for - Rich People = Rich Club - which has been proven wrong. Also i'm not sure how you could kill of the appeal of Pro RL in one area with one fell swoop.

 

[t-ba]

Fair enough, i should've counted in their time at Hurstville Oval ,but honestly, do you still believe anyone thinks of Hurstville instead of Oki Jubilee when they talk about the St. George Dragons? And why would a merged entity that has its base in both St. George and Illawarra move to solely reside in Illawarra unless the NRL told St. George to F**k Off?

Because It makes sense in the long term. The Illawarra is a growing area as is the South Coast. The St George District is tiny and completely surrounded by other catchments. The Saints Brand is bigger in Country New South Wales and in Queensland than it is in Sydney, and can survive and prosper based in the Illawarra. Think Green Bay Packers.

Sure, Manly and the Northern Suburbs of Sydney may be home to 800,000 rich people, but how many people are turning up to Manly home games? 14.000 That's 1.75% of all those rich people per fortnight (every home game). The same as any other Sydney Club. The club itself has lost $1.1m last year and a $1/4m this year... All those rich people surely do the trick keeping Manly the constant Profit Maker... Your argument has no basis, they pay the same price for the ticket don't they, why should the rich deserve a team so close to Sydney?

I want you to sit down and organise that stream of conscious narrative into some actual arguments. What you've got there are some half arguments.

I never said a Rich area makes a rich club. I said exposure in a rich area 1/5 the size of Sydney is vital to the game. Manlys roots are in the Working class Forest District of the Northern Beaches, much like North Sydneys were in the Working class areas of the Lower North Shore. A cleverly run Manly can take advantage of the wealth of the Area much like North Sydney did when it had corporate heavyweights like Citibank behind it in the 1990's, before it made the stupid decision to abandon its hard won demographic by moving up the coast.

Manly
End of June 2007
Total revenue: $11 million
Sponsorship: $2.9 million
Gate takings: $1.5 million
Leagues club grant: $470,000
Loss: $1.1 million last year; estimated loss $250,000 this year.

Saints are propped up by a Leagues club as surely as Manly are by a Private investor, to the tune of $5 million. You may notice how the club is moving to profitability too...

The Dragons this year have only pulled an average of 10,000 but that's due to a large form slump from the club. But it's only 4000 short of all the rich people of North Sydney who have a team currently running 2nd...

Manly has drawn more than the Dragons for the last three seasons, including 2005, when they came second. Even without the benefit of two fan bases and a location central to mass transit infrastructure.

IIRC Oki is getting another upgrade to 22,000 but i may be wrong. The Dragons survive the cull for being connected with Illawarra, whether they would if not being a merger, i couldnt say. Another point to consider is that the Dragons always draw large crowds from the Brisbane people, more potential gate takings.

How many Dragons fans North of the Tweed do you think will bail out on a full time Illawarra based Dragons outfit exactly? Half of these people haven't set sight upon Jubilee Oval let alone feel some spiritual connection to the Eastern Distributor...

22,000, if it happens, will wind up being too small. Wests, Souths, Canterbury and Parramatta (Once the ground capacity is increased to 25k) will all be consistently drawing in excess of 20k in the near future, and as the pokie industry becomes increasingly overtaxed, entities like The Roosters, Panthers and Saints won't be able to rely so heavily on cash cows like PEG and the Taj Mahal. Manly will be rooted unless they can get Brookvale upgraded or some kind of mass transit out of the district. Those are the harsh realities of the near future.

Just to point out some flaws in your argument for - Rich People = Rich Club - which has been proven wrong. Also i'm not sure how you could kill of the appeal of Pro RL in one area with one fell swoop.

Now, where did I say rich area = Rich Club Exactly? Don't assume what has not been said.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Just to point out some flaws in your argument for - Rich People = Rich Club - which has been proven wrong. Also i'm not sure how you could kill of the appeal of Pro RL in one area with one fell swoop.

Never heard of the North Sydney Bears???

In 1994 Manly and Norths averaged 30,000 between them today Manly get 14,500 and, Norths, well who knows what their supporters are doing.

So between St.George, Illawarra, Manly, and Norths between them they once averaged 54,000 people today 25,000. Now how has this been good for RL??????????????????????

 

[Blind Freddy]

I never said a Rich area makes a rich club. I said exposure in a rich area 1/5 the size of Sydney is vital to the game. Manlys roots are in the Working class Forest District of the Northern Beaches, much like North Sydneys were in the Working class areas of the Lower North Shore. A cleverly run Manly can take advantage of the wealth of the Area much like North Sydney did when it had corporate heavyweights like Citibank behind it in the 1990's, before it made the stupid decision to abandon its hard won demographic by moving up the coast.

The North Sydney Bears only decided to make the move North due to North Sydney oval being deemed not fit to be a Rugbly league home ground by that great document to come out of the SL war called "the criteria", pitty this "crtiteria" notion was found to be an utter joke a complete load of sh*t that in the end did not need to be obeyed ...Eg. Souths readmittion and games being played at North Syney oval again in recent years. They also wanted to be granted regional country status and thus be immune to the great Sydney chop that was meant to happen.

The Bears were the greatest loss to rugby league out of the SL, this is all just now coming to light for some people. Blame that goose Noel Whittaker for letting the game be put together in such a dodgy manner and some mistifyingly stupid descisons that were made post war.

In 1994 Manly and Norths averaged 30,000 between them today Manly get 14,500 and, Norths, well who knows what their supporters are doing.

A loss of the games greatest rivalry, A loss of a foundation club, A los of a great opportunity of a very powerful club in the making ie the CC/North Sydney Bears, A loss of 800,000 potential people to the game who just happen to be the richest in the country..... and guess where most swans fans and Yawnion fans reside???

where did Rugby Leagues 2 biggest rival codes get their free massive boost in Sydney from?

There's too many teams in Sydney yet the whole heartland isn't fully covered, albeit the neglected areas are the ones that would have a pretty sizeable influence on the health of the sport.

 

[Blind Freddy]

*double post