WAR!!!

[TheSaint]

John Howards government has the right to send troops to war because he is our democratically ellected leader. Like it or not, It doesn't matter what the Australian public think until the next ellection comes around.

Currently I'm fence sitting in regards to this war. I believe Saddam should be gotten rid of because he is an evil tyrant and an independant Kurdish state be formed. Having said that, I innocent people will die under the regime if nothing is done, and innocent people will die in the war. I don't know which would be the greater number.

But that is not the reason for this war, all though it may (but probably not) be an out come. This War is about denying a rogue state the ability to have Weapons of mass destruction and to stop it from potentially forming partnerships with Terrorist groups against Western Interests. This is a bullshit reason asSaudi Arabia and Syria are more likely to provide these so called links within their borders.

You can never trust America. They will kill more Coalition soldiers then the Iraqis will. Their idea of high tech, sophisticated acurate arsenal includes Cluster bombs as were used in Afghanistan. Carpet bombing is as morally correct as land mines. This will ensure high civilian casualties that will be hushed up.

This Action has shown the UN to be the toothless Tiger it really is. The War is legal under previous Charters. The UN has notstopped Wars, has not done anything to fix the problems of poverty. The UN is irrelavant and the argument that we can't go to War with out the backing of Cowardly countries like France makes me sick. Disarming Iraq is a good thingand is sanctioned by the UN, yet they applied no pressure on Iraq to comply and had all investigations hampered by the Government. What a joke.

To fight thisWar is both right and wrong. Only in the aftermath may one notion be proved more correct.

 

[imported_justme]

What is this pre-occupation with Iraq and Hussein.Such regimes have always existed and nothing is ever done about them.Mugabe inZimbabwe is no better than Hussein and Nrth Korea poses a larger risk to world peace than Iraq yet we hear of no threats of war against them from cowboy George W and his trusty sidekickJohn.

Ooops, silly me,they have no oil do they

Bloody hypocrisy

 

[Willow]

justme: "What is this pre-occupation with Iraq and Hussein..."

Yep, thats about the gist of it... the middle east is America's gas station.

What amazes me is the amount of pro-war justification that is coming out now... and all of provided by that square-ish looking thing that sits in the corner of the loungeroom.

Come to think of it, theres nothing amazing about that at all.

 

[TheSaint]

You know we wont get any true idea of what's going on until SBS do a doco in 10 years time and then in another 30 when the documens are released.

 

[imported_justme]

the middle east is America's gas station
That and a familyvendetta by the son of George.

 

[El Duque]

I just found ninemsn hav a forum here http://groups.msn.com/wariniraq

Any 2UE listeners here?

Some bird on the Parra MB claims that 80% of people are behind this and they are the FACTS

 

[Willow]

Facts? lol... you mean like this:

<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%" border=1> <tbody> <tr class=ThmBgAlternate> <td nowrap align=middle background=http://sc.communities.msn.com/themes/pby/img/mb/reply_bg.gif><a target=_top>Reply</a>

</td> <td width="100%"> <table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%" border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td> Recommend </td> <td align=right>Message 2 of 2 in Discussion </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr> <tr class=ThmBgHighlightLight> <td width="100%" colspan=2> <table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=4 width="100%" border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td nowrap width="100%">From: Flexyin response toMessage 1</td> <td nowrap>Sent: 20/03/2003 9:13 PM</td></tr></tbody></table> <table class=ThmBgStandard cellspacing=0 cellpadding=10 width="100%" border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td> War is good! Deffinetly when it is in Iraq blowing up towel heads that are no good for nothing! Drop a nuc and send into space!
</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[legend]

Willow, no need for the history lesson. I know America lost the war and I never said they were the cause I said it was directly related to the war. Hasn't Vietnam become one of the hottest tourist destinations in South East Asia? Something must be going right there.............

Justme, as The Saint said, John Howard is our democratically elected leader so his political future will be decided by his current course of action and he has said as much. How is this different to Hawke sending troops in 91'? At least we have a leader willing to make a decision and he has been crystal clear on where he stands from day one. Can you say that about any of the other blokes opposing him? I bet you weren't as loud in your condemantion of Hawke in 91 but that's hypocrisy for you isn't it?

I also thought Howard was the only one to condemn Mugabe in the last CHOGM meeting held in Brisbane and wasn't he one of the only ones who voted to suspend or expel Zimbabwe from the Commonwealth. I may be wrong and i'm happy to be corrected on this one becauseI am not 100% sure.

Justme, you also mention Mugabe and North Korea. Are both situations over 12 years old? I'm sure North Korea is not and the U.S said that the crisis with North Korea is only in it's infancy and diplomacy may hold more hope than force. With Hussein, they know that diplomacy is a waste of time. Surely you can concede this is the case or does it not suit your agendas?

How about the performance of your men Crean and Brown? Hardly inspiring stuff andI would be more fearful if he we had dimwits like that running the country.

 

[imported_justme]

Some bird on the Parra MB claims that 80% of people are behind this and they are the FACTS
Well what would you expect,Parra fans also believe B Smith is their saviour.

 

[legend]

Justme, care to read the passage below? I placed it in italics for you so you won't miss it. Seems to cover the hon John Howard quite well IMO. Let me know what you think. And if this situation with Mugabe has been going longer than seven years, well why didn't the previous Labor govt do anything about it?

CHOGM delegates split over Zimbabwe
Despite fears of growing political violence in Zimbabwe, Commonwealth leaders have decided to take no action before next week's election. Commonwealth observers will monitor the poll and produce a written report before any action is taken. The wait-and-see stance follows a dispute between Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Britain, who backed suspension of Zimbabwe from the Commonwealth, and the larger block of African nations, who opposed any punitive action. After much agonising, they came up with a mechanism which will see three Commonwealth leaders, including Australia's John Howard, deciding if next weekend's presidential poll is free and fair.

Source: Lateline http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/s496240.htm

 

[imported_justme]

I bet you weren't as loud in your condemantion of Hawke in 91 but that's hypocrisy for you isn't it?

Oh please give me a break Legend. First off in 91 Iraq had invaded Kuwait, slightly different circumstances don't you think.Secondly Howard has already stated he isn't standing for re-election sohis assertion of "putting himslef up to be judged" is justpompousgrandstanding and a moot point.

Howard may have slappedMugabe's wrist but I don't recall him sending any troops there to free their oppresed population do you? Isn't that a case of double standards?
As for Nrth Korea, well that little fuss has been going on since 1950, a little more than 12 years I may point out, and they openly acknowledge havingnuclear weapons. If the dynamic duo of George W and Little John were truly concernedwith dealing withreal threats and terrorism then what about Syria. You yourself have already strongly pointed out what they did in Lebanon and how they actively and openly support terrorist groups. If this is truly about oppression and terrorism why is nothing being said about them eh? Selective morality methinks.

Could it just be that the son of George, being the child that he is, simplywants retribution for big Daddy and that little Johnny has naively locked himself in because of his overiding desireto be recognised at George W's table? Wars have been started for far less.

Your childish taunt re "your men Crean and Brown" is simply unworthy of reply. I happen to be capable offree thought and don't need others to form my opinions, least of all any politician of any persuasion thankyou. I leave the ideology to the sheep.

 

[Willow]

Leggo:"Willow, no need for the history lesson. I know America lost the war and I never said they were the cause I said it was directly related to the war. Hasn't Vietnam become one of the hottest tourist destinations in South East Asia? Something must be going right there............."

But hang on a sec...
I'm not giving you a history lesson... it was youwho mentioned Japan and Germany... to my way of thinking you trying to install a bit of history yourself.... even though I clearly made reference to the last 20 years.Plus I also thought I was talking aboutAmerica'sinvolvement in overthrowing the leaders and installing their own version of a leader.

But Okay, lets talk about the glorious history of the USA since WWII....apart from Cambodia and Nicaragua, what about Grenada, Panama, Laos, Philipines, El Salvador, Honduras...? I say again, reading about such things will do you the world of good.... especially about Nicuargua.

"I also thought Howard was the only one to condemn Mugabe in the last CHOGM "
No, no no.. many have condemned Mugabe... at chogm and at other international meetings... Howard is just adhering to the status quo. Wrong again. Not that it relevant.... unless offcourse Howard called for Mugabe to be overthrown but thats not going to happen eh?

"Justme, you also mention Mugabe and North Korea. Are both situations over 12 years old?"
Please elaborate on what you mean by 'situations'.
Mugabe became Prime Minister of Zimbabawe in 1980 - he became executive president in 1987... the country has been experiencing atrocities against it people for quite a while.... even before Mugabe became pres.
The USA and North Korea have been officially at war since the the 1950s. Where shall we start with these... 'situations'...?

 

[imported_justme]

well why didn't the previous Labor govt do anything about it?
Oh excuse me, I thought we were having a discussion on the correctness of decisionstaken today, I didn't realise we were having a discussion on judging thosedecisionson the basis of relativity

So, let me get this right,you are saying because cavemen bashed their women with clubs then it is OK to do it today?In that case I reckon Hussein's a pretty good fella, after all he hasn't killed as many people as Hitler has he.

You have a strange way of justifying actions.

 

[legend]

Oh please give me a break Legend. First off in 91 Iraq had invaded Kuwait, slightly different circumstances don't you think.

Well what would you propose we do Justme? Nothing? You have been swift in your condemnation but have not offered an alternative solutionto the crisis? I'd be interested to hear one.

 

This message has been deleted by the author.

 

[meltiger..]

Some bird on the Parra MB claims that 80% of people are behind this and they are the FACTS

You would actually be suprised Marty.

Mate, for weeks people on the floor at work have been whinging, bitching and moaning about how we shouldn't be involved in this war.... Today they had completely changed and were excitedly trying to keep up with news if the war and generally talking it up.

I honestly believe, most people are starting to see through the shit that has been spewed forth by the left over the last 3-4 weeks and are starting to judge the situation on Saddam's own record, not on the anti-american views that have been driving the entire argument behind one side of the debate - Such as this oil conspiracy nonsense, that none of them can prove whatsoever. People are starting to look at his recordwith the Kurds and today's doozy about the plastic machine was one rare story I actually wish I hadn't read.

I'd love to know where Willow gets his 50,000 civilian deaths figure from, are they the UN figures? As they were being reported as being much lower than that during the last week or so when talking about Saddam's massive inflation of the figures last time around.

 

[Willow]

Alternatves have been put forward but are always dismissed as being 'unworkable' - as if war is 'workable'. I'd like to see the USA show the same committment to other nations in need. Even the ones that actually are asking for help.

Legend, just admit it, thiswar is more to do with the USA's determination to get hold of Iraqi resources.
They're not fair dinkum about liberating oppressed peoples... they just want to make a quid. Get it?

 

[Willow]

Craig: (Meltiger?): " I honestly believe, most people are starting to see through the shit that has been spewed forth by the left over the last 3-4 weeks and are starting to judge the situation on Saddam's own record"

No mate, they just saw the PMs speech tonight and that excited them so much that they're wetting themselves in anticipation.

 

[meltiger..]

"Legend, just admit it, thiswar is more to do with the USA's determination to get hold of Iraqi resources."

Prove it.

Prove that even a single shred of that statement is true Willow.

 

[legend]

Justme, all I was saying is you are having a swipe at the way things are currently done but it's not just the Libs who have let things go unchecked and you were the one who brought up North Korea and Zimbabwe. It just suits your argument which is fair enough I suppose.

My view is the Govt is doing this to ensure we have U.S suport in the region when it comes time to disarm North Korea and from what I know, this situation, the current crisis with North Koreahas only resurfaced in the last two months based on the North Koreans openly admitting they were planning to reopen nuclear reactors so the latest development is only in it's infancy. You took my words and twisted them to suit your argument when you knew full well what I meant. I'll be sure to make things as clear as possible next time.

Willow, let me rephrase that. Howard voted to suspend Zimbabwe from the Commonwealth at the last CHOGM meeting along with Canada, New Zealand and Great Britain but were stopped by the smaller African nations who were sympathetic to Mugabe. I agree he needs to go but Australia simply do not have the military manpower to fight that battle alone.