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Warriors - most frustrating team of all time?

KeepingTheFaith

Referee
Messages
25,235
Exactly. Everyone makes their calls pre-season on who will and won't make the 8, and as always some are right and some are wrong. Nobody ever gets it completely right.

Any team that misses the 8 can point to various circumstances whether negative against them or positive for the other team. No team belongs anywhere which is my main issue, a poor choice of wording.

In a competition that is so close, the smallest things can be the difference between being a disappointment, being a contender, or ending up "where you belong". Being "right" about where a team ends up doesn't make an opinion about that team fact and it certainly isn't a reason for chest thumping.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,707
The problem about asserting that a team belongs in 5th-12th (or wherever) is always with the benefit of hindsight, and doesn't take into account extraneous influences (such as injuries/suspension to key players or whatever, or even the same happening to opposition teams at the time said team played them), or single moments in games (penalties, brain explosions, opponents miracle plays).

Based on their performances to date this year, Warriors absolutely deserve to be where they are. But if there wasn't injuries to Manu/Mannering/Luck/Ropati/Lillyman/Rapira/Locke/Hurrell/Friend, or if Inu hadn't dropped "that" ball, or if Billy Tupou actually tackled someone, or if Williams hadn't got his foot to the ball in Round 1, or if... blah blah blah blah... then we could have been in first this year!

But I wouldn't have made that generalisation at the start of the year because none of that stuff had happened (same could go for any team, just making a general assumption based on past years to a current team is at best lucky guess).
Firstly, every team has suspensions and injuries and loses games because of "single moments".
Secondly, I agree that is a factor but that's why I'm not pointing to just this season. This is the 5th consecutive season that is fitting the pattern I described. Either the Warriors have had an extraordinarily bad run of luck for season after season or the pattern isn't just a coincidence and points to a squad that deserves to be mid table.

They're too good to be bottom 4. They're not good enough to be top 4. Thus 5th-12th.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
Bunniesderp... even twice a day a broken watch is right.

The one concern I had at the back end of last year has been realised, a lack of experience... a lot of experienced guys were let go at the end of last year. Not necessarily more talented players than the ones still there, in some cases far from it, but hard heads who have been through a lot collectively. It really left us with a slim core of what you'd call experienced players - Vatuvei (although to me an experienced winger probably doesn't help the mentally hard situations out much IMO), Mannering, Sam Rapira, Feleti Mateo, Nathan Friend, Jerome Ropati and Michael Luck. Many of the fanbois have been for the last couple of years actively calling for replacements for Michael Luck... this has proven them to be very wrong. Of those footballers, only Mateo and Mannering have been consistently available.

In seasons gone by when this has happened, they've been able to call in the likes of Jesse Royal, Jeremy Latimore, Aaron Heremaia, Joel Moon, Shaun Berrigan, Brett Seymour. Blokes who weren't necessarily the best players going around, but blokes who had had success at some point in their career or were of a decent age. They also had Lance Hohaia who was very experienced. They decided to let most of those blokes go in one or two foul swoops. I think in the long run it will pay off. The fact is, a lot of the guys with 20-30 games under their belt now are all going to be hitting 100 odd games at the same stage, with Mannering, Lillyman, Sam Rapira, Mateo, Vatuvei hitting 150-200 odd games collectively. That will get them that balance, and with the right pathways continuing to develop underneath them continue to bring throughalent at the right times. Currently, they're too inexperienced and they just haven't learned. In 50 or so games for this core group of players I personally don't see this being an issue, and I'd think the 18 zip starts they're getting will be maybe not 80 minute complete performances because I think thats a bit of a myth, but 60-65 minute periods, and the other 15-20 minutes not a mental meltdown. There's no doubt there's some of the premiere talent in the game at this club.

Yep, they'll miss the finals.... but I dare say with a bit more experience under their belts they will close out the games they should have got - Melbourne in Melbourne (Inu errors caused a catostrophic meltdown), Tigers (didn't respond well to a Vatuvei error), Sharks (didn't respond well to a 40/20), Broncos (enough possession but just failed to make it count), Manly (Hurrell injury key, but not knowing how to read wide spreads was a major problem). I dare say 50% of those games go their way and the club is sitting pretty for a tilt at the top 4. It's not to be, no excuses, we played poorly at key moments. The issues they've gone through can be coached... which brings the main problem.

I only have one concern. The coach. The decision to put Hurrell back on last week was a dopey one. The compressed defensive line has been destroyed week in week out. I'm not sure he's the answer. I think he needs to be at the club until the end of next year to see if the development of the players mentality can come through under him. I never believe in chopping and changing coaches. You hire a bloke for a reason, you see something there, I'm sure he pitched his strategy to the executive team who would have been accepting of it and therefore offered him the role.

One other thing that really hasn't been brought up - the loss of John Hart. A former All Blacks coach and an executive board member of some large scale businesses, his experience at critical times no doubt was very beneficial in the development of Ivan Cleary. I'm not sure who Brian McClennan can turn to.
 
Messages
17,490
Making an argument, having that argument contested, then pointing to facts to support that argument is not arrogant.

I haven't brought up Souths at all in this thread. I haven't talked myself up in any way besides saying I think I'm right.

You know I am not wrong here so the only responses you have is a silly little rant. I hope it made you feel better.

"you know I am not wrong"

End of argument
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,707
I do not need to prove you wrong or right farkwit. You just go ahead and make a dick of yourself...it is entertaining.
And you keep making nonsensical, hysterical offtopic posts that have nothing to do with the thread topic. I am trying to participate in the thread properly, you are trying to be an idiot.
 
Messages
17,490
Only an idiot would say that.

You do not participate, you try and tell the Warrior guys that you are right and they are wrong.

For the record, they have outperformed your mob consistently since joining the comp and as a Sharks fan, I would be overjoyed if our mob had half the guts and effort there sides show. I would also be happy if we had the results.

You carry on about how you had them pegged at what was it, 5th to 12 or some such shit. You are full of shit, the really smelly disgusting runny type of shit that really annoys the f**k out of people.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,707
Only an idiot would say that.

You do not participate, you try and tell the Warrior guys that you are right and they are wrong.

For the record, they have outperformed your mob consistently since joining the comp and as a Sharks fan, I would be overjoyed if our mob had half the guts and effort there sides show. I would also be happy if we had the results.

You carry on about how you had them pegged at what was it, 5th to 12 or some such shit. You are full of shit, the really smelly disgusting runny type of shit that really annoys the f**k out of people.
1. Souths aren't relevant to this discussion. I didn't bring us up, I didn't say we're better than or equal to or worse than them. Souths shave nothing to do with this thread.
2. Hint: your club is above theirs on the ladder. I'm sure they'd like to swap results with you too.
3. I'm done replying to you in this thread. I'm just being dragged down to your level. I'm over your childish irrelevant attacks.
 

Juju

Juniors
Messages
1,712
You need to look at what you find more successful Bunniesderp - where your team finishes on the ladder or how deep you go into September / October footy?

What would you deem more successful, Finishing 2nd or making a grand final?

Deep down I know you are actually pretty envious of what we have brought to the comp.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,707
There's no difference between losing a grand final and getting knocked out in the first week. Once you make the finals it's all about winning the GF. NOONE remembers how deep teams go into September if they don't win.

As for what the Warriors have brought to the comp. I hate how you haven't given yourselves a proper name. You're like the Roosters and Tigers, f**ken call yourselves Auckland/New Zealand. But besides that of course the Warriors have been a good thing. The NZ tv rights adds a nice extra chunk to the tv rights income and it's great for kiwi talent to have a direct pathway to the NRL.

But I do find it strange how poor the Warriors are at retaining talent. Look at Luke, Benji and Foran. The core of your test spine is playing for our clubs. Great for us but a poor indication of talent scouting over there. And you almost lost Shaun Johnson to AFL!

That's why I think the Warriors will finish mid table more often than not. They're not the top 2/4 team everyone thinks they are because contrary to popular opinion, they are not the Kiwi test team. We have a salary capped comp, they are no super power. That's why they finish mid table much more often than top 4.

Your biggest problem is talent retention. Whoever is in charge of it across the pond knows to get the fastest/biggest/strongest athletes. You know to keep the athletes, but you guys aren't very good at retaining footballers. Your best pure footballers have been picked up by our clubs for a reason.
 

KeepingTheFaith

Referee
Messages
25,235
But I do find it strange how poor the Warriors are at retaining talent. Look at Luke, Benji and Foran. The core of your test spine is playing for our clubs. Great for us but a poor indication of talent scouting over there. And you almost lost Shaun Johnson to AFL!

Your biggest problem is talent retention. Whoever is in charge of it across the pond knows to get the fastest/biggest/strongest athletes. You know to keep the athletes, but you guys aren't very good at retaining footballers. Your best pure footballers have been picked up by our clubs for a reason.

Things like this is why people get stuck into you more than you deserve at times, but I will get into that in a second.

For the record I agree with what you're saying here. While the NYC was the best thing to happen in some time for the Warriors junior development, they still aren't always making the right decisions in regards to who they keep and let go. Despite that, it's hard to count guys like Benji and Foran who were raised in Australia as opposed to being under the Warriors nose from day one. The Warriors scouting was also absolutely piss poor back in the Benji days so no real surprise in that regards.

But getting back to why people get stuck into you. You make comments like the one above which are in many cases completely valid, which is why it boggles the mind to understand why when Glenn/Watson made the very positive announcement a few weeks ago you completely ridiculed and rubbished it when the idea of that announcement is to set the Warriors up to do exactly what it is you're saying they don't do.
 

Juju

Juniors
Messages
1,712
There's no difference between losing a grand final and getting knocked out in the first week. Once you make the finals it's all about winning the GF. NOONE remembers how deep teams go into September if they don't win.

There actually is a huge difference for the fans though - the excitement of your team going on a run and still being alive in October is something very hard to beat.
You of course have never experienced that.

The club is most definitely on the right track with development and retention. There may be growing pains this year but Im pretty confident this will bring rewards shortly.

As for our history... we have 100 year clubs in our local club comps. The same teams that use to belt Souths when they would tour NZ in the distant past.
 

Evil_Mush

Juniors
Messages
1,027
There's no difference between losing a grand final and getting knocked out in the first week. Once you make the finals it's all about winning the GF. NOONE remembers how deep teams go into September if they don't win.


Yeah as Juju mentioned, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are talking about teams other than that which you support, even though you didn't explicitly mention it. Surely you would be happier with Souths losing a grand final than being kicked out in any of the weeks prior?

Also, I would have thought that if someone remembers a grand final winner, surely they'll remember the team they beat as well? Or is that just me?

I can however see what you are saying with regards to finals games in general that do not involve the team one supports, there are a number of non-Warriors finals games over the past few years that I can't for the life of me remember without having to look it up online.
 

Hanscholo

Bench
Messages
4,818
Considering your side hasnt been in a GF for 40 years you arent really qualified to comment, and for the record there is a vast difference between weeks 1 to 4 in finals.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,707
But getting back to why people get stuck into you. You make comments like the one above which are in many cases completely valid, which is why it boggles the mind to understand why when Glenn/Watson made the very positive announcement a few weeks ago you completely ridiculed and rubbished it when the idea of that announcement is to set the Warriors up to do exactly what it is you're saying they don't do.
I didn't "completely" ridicule it. I ridiculed the bit about aiming to be the biggest thing in Australasia. To become a superpower like that would need a level of success impossible in a comp with such a strict salary cap and pure free agency.

I didn't ridicule the bits about more money invested in juniors. In fact I praised that part.
 

Rebel

First Grade
Messages
5,360
But I do find it strange how poor the Warriors are at retaining talent. Look at Luke, Benji and Foran.

Ummm... You DO realise that none of these guys were ever on the Warriors radar? How can you 'retain' something you never had in the first place?
 
Messages
15,545
Ummm... You DO realise that none of these guys were ever on the Warriors radar? How can you 'retain' something you never had in the first place?

Bunniesman logic dictates that if you have some sort of New Zealand heritage then you are a Warriors Junior.

Doesn't matter about what actually happens / happened.

I mean, we all know that in real life, New Zealand heritage = Queenslander but Bunniesman hasn't caught on yet.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,707
FFS Benji came here at 16. Some here saw enough in him to give him a scholarship. Why didn't the Warriors see the biggest kiwi talent of a generation.
 
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