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Why does rugby league have trouble expanding internationally compared to other codes

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
The marketplaces in which ALL professional sports compete for space are competitive, to one degree or another.

Are you seriously saying that the AFL is not "meddling" when it openly claims that it is going to be the premier code in Western Sydney? Or doesn't that count?


Rugby league and rugby union have several characteristics in common. The name is the most important of these, similar ball, a fair degree of similarity in the games themselves. So it is axiomatic that to a large extent they will be competing for the same players, sponsors, supporters, venues, etc etc.



Why on earth would either one welcome the other into their patch? Would you expect the rugby league authorities in, say, Serbia, to welcome the entry of a rugby union competition?

Interesting please do tell about the Serbian example? From my knowledge rugby league was having great difficulty starting up and growing in Serbia due to RU undermining it.

In fact a tact of offering to have governance over the code of rugby league under the control of the established rugby union set up was occurring? Perhaps this may be the fate of some other fledgling RL competition elsewhere in Europe. But I know of this latest controlling RU tactic. (making sure the RL threat is not likely to takeover )and is probably the first competition to be axed in hard times! I'm pretty sure RU has been set up before any RL competition in Serbia but please enlighten me in your own way. Sometimes genuine popular demand does occur and maybe RL has been established prior to Union but I doubt it!
 

Knownothing

Juniors
Messages
764
No idea, mate, my knowledge of rugby league in Serbia is limited to what I have read on LU. It seems to be doing okay. I have heard nothing at all about rugby union in Serbia.


Speaking generally, what did you think about what Miguel de Cervantes wrote? He said whatever rugby union has done to hamper rugby league, rugby league has done twice as much to hamper itself.


That is the point that fervent supporters like yourself should be doing something about, forget about the machinations of another code, you have absolutely no chance of influencing anything that the rah rahs do.


You do have a chance of influencing what your preferred code does. Forget about conspiracies, and people in high places, if you want to do something, do it. Support the code in any way you can. Posting here might make you feel better, but it is, as they say, preaching to the converted.


Go into battle! Aux armes, citoyens!!
 

Knownothing

Juniors
Messages
764
Why what has that got to do with anything?


Gee, I thought it might have something to do with the fact that they were playing a rival sport? Under Fitzgerald they did.


It wouldn't be errrrrr some kind of discrimination, would it? Surely not.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
No idea, mate, my knowledge of rugby league in Serbia is limited to what I have read on LU. It seems to be doing okay. I have heard nothing at all about rugby union in Serbia.


Speaking generally, what did you think about what Miguel de Cervantes wrote? He said whatever rugby union has done to hamper rugby league, rugby league has done twice as much to hamper itself.


That is the point that fervent supporters like yourself should be doing something about, forget about the machinations of another code, you have absolutely no chance of influencing anything that the rah rahs do.


You do have a chance of influencing what your preferred code does. Forget about conspiracies, and people in high places, if you want to do something, do it. Support the code in any way you can. Posting here might make you feel better, but it is, as they say, preaching to the converted.


Go into battle! Aux armes, citoyens!!


Let me fill you in on Serbia:-
That wasn't the end of it,
" In 1953 in the days of Greater Yugoslavia ,the French brought rugby league to Serbia.
The visit of a student side and a Provence selection for a game in Belgrade stirred enough interest for the establishment of a Serbian league.
The trouble was Bosnia played ru and in 1964,after lobbying(here we go again) from that code, the national sports authorities ordered the Serbs to amalgamate, and that was not the end of it."
It took 40 years for Serbia to get back into rugby league..
Nothing compares to what the FFR officials did in lobbying a despised puppet Govt to rugby league, and I disagree with Miguel.

" Preaching to the converted",as opposed to getting" preached to by those in denial".

I will summarise by stating, given free unfettered access within a new country ,rugby league with its limited financial resources has shown it can get the job done.When Govts are lobbied or barriers put up ,it's a far different proposition.Rugby league to my knowledge has never set out to have its competitor banned or made it so difficult for
them as to give up.The fact that in 2016 ,in a so called enlightened society it still occurs ,is mind boggling.
 
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Messages
14,139
No idea, mate, my knowledge of rugby league in Serbia is limited to what I have read on LU. It seems to be doing okay. I have heard nothing at all about rugby union in Serbia.


Speaking generally, what did you think about what Miguel de Cervantes wrote? He said whatever rugby union has done to hamper rugby league, rugby league has done twice as much to hamper itself.


That is the point that fervent supporters like yourself should be doing something about, forget about the machinations of another code, you have absolutely no chance of influencing anything that the rah rahs do.


You do have a chance of influencing what your preferred code does. Forget about conspiracies, and people in high places, if you want to do something, do it. Support the code in any way you can. Posting here might make you feel better, but it is, as they say, preaching to the converted.


Go into battle! Aux armes, citoyens!!
Ignore, forget, conceal. The union way.

Which might even be almost acceptable if they weren't still pulling their same old shit.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Gee, I thought it might have something to do with the fact that they were playing a rival sport? Under Fitzgerald they did.


It wouldn't be errrrrr some kind of discrimination, would it? Surely not.

How can it be discrimination FHS , when that code's club received financial assistance from their competitor.It says more about rl and less about ru, when it comes to magnanimity.
It would be akin to Japanese businesses who own ru clubs, to fund a Tokyo rl club.

I'm sure a rl club in France would love to receive financial assistance from the Toulon ru club.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
No idea, mate, my knowledge of rugby league in Serbia is limited to what I have read on LU. It seems to be doing okay. I have heard nothing at all about rugby union in Serbia.


Speaking generally, what did you think about what Miguel de Cervantes wrote? He said whatever rugby union has done to hamper rugby league, rugby league has done twice as much to hamper itself.


That is the point that fervent supporters like yourself should be doing something about, forget about the machinations of another code, you have absolutely no chance of influencing anything that the rah rahs do.


You do have a chance of influencing what your preferred code does. Forget about conspiracies, and people in high places, if you want to do something, do it. Support the code in any way you can. Posting here might make you feel better, but it is, as they say, preaching to the converted.


Go into battle! Aux armes, citoyens!!
You were the one who brought up Serbia? Strange response. especially when we are discussing a sport? It's funny having to go into battle for a sport? I can see that RU types can advocate and dismiss the "dodgy" behavior of RU type people all over the world it seems? It's a pretty poor reflection on their stance on fairness and common decency. Let's forget/ignore the past and hope no one or not many people have an awareness of what has really been happening behind the scenes.

This thread is aimed at a core question of "Why rugby league has failed to expand on a world wide basis?" and I believe we are getting to some decent and very valid reasons why. The theme is basically RU repression world wide of rugby league and incompetent RL administrations. It makes sense. When it's an administrative incompetency I can stomach the reasoning but when it's a result of hegemonic based bigotry with ideological bias entrenched in the scholastic system and then through government policy and underhanded decision making then that's where I draw the line. It's unfair and unsportsmanlike.

Quite simply the bigotry spawned by RU against RL has, limited and in many instances stopped potentially millions of young men & perhaps women all over the world from enjoying the sport of rugby league over many decades. It's a pathetic and deceitful stance taken and perpetrated by RU types whom know what they have been doing. It's a sporting disgrace and not many know about it.

Well done RU types, you have won the battle of underhandedness and deceitfulness. What a pristine and lilywhite code you have been! Not!

I just wish more people had knowledge of this repression of rugby league. It's potentially a massive story but no one(journalist wise) has had the balls to expose it. Some have documented instances around the world like in France(Mike Rylance: The Forbidden Game) , South Africa & Kenya etc but no one has done a world wide expose of this disgraceful bigotry of one sport(RU) upon its very attractive younger "brother"(RL)
On a personal note I am having issues obtaining a supervisor for a proposed thesis on the "Lack of rugby league in the private schools of Australia, particularly NSW & Old." But that's another struggle & story.
 

ParraEelsNRL

Referee
Messages
27,714
Gee, I thought it might have something to do with the fact that they were playing a rival sport? Under Fitzgerald they did.


It wouldn't be errrrrr some kind of discrimination, would it? Surely not.
You mean keeping them alive and asking nothing in return?

Nothing wrong with that at all wouldn't you agree?

I still have no idea why you would even bring that up,it shows rugby league in a good light with union being the recipient.
 
Messages
1,354
Ignore, forget, conceal. The union way.
.

No surprise that the rugby community would downplay everything they done to rugby league, I wouldn't be surprised if some even justified the banning of rugby league due to league being the professional code first and bringing rugby players away during the initial split and onward.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
No surprise that the rugby community would downplay everything they done to rugby league, I wouldn't be surprised if some even justified the banning of rugby league due to league being the professional code first and bringing rugby players away during the initial split and onward.

That's part of the RU stance.

But the real underlying issue is that all those many years ago, rugby league happened to create a better code of rugby by necessity
. It was a breakaway code that needed people to pay through the gate to pay its players. This necessitated an improvement in rules such as reduced team numbers to 13 a side to open up the field and eliminate boring aspects such as the line out(football ballet) and the cumbersome ruck/mall with the master stroke of the play the ball.

These modification/new rules made rugby league a genuine spectacle and much more attractive to watch than its older/ugly brother union. It irks the rugby union types that the "younger brother"(RL) created a better version of rugby. A more open and democratic form of rugby that allowed for every player to get in and have a tackle and a run, not just a select few(mostly half and fullback)as seen in union.

So today we see a far superior code of rugby (RL) still being minimized by its "big ugly brother". Only now are the lengths to which RU bigotry is being discovered and slowly acknowledged. The majority of people are still no wiser as to what has gone on but perhaps one day and hopefully very soon.

I feel that RU is working very quickly to undermine rugby league's popularity in Australia as we exchange thoughts. They are attacking rugby league's ranks with a number of tactics like using AFL to entice our weekend juniors with AFL benefitting by gaining private school access in NSW & QLD in recent years, and rugby union launching its own challenge to rugby league in public schools by pushing on with clinics that call themselves "rugby" and of course maintaining the no access rule for rugby league in the secondary private schools everywhere.

Rugby league's administrators have been slow to articulate the threats but I'm hoping they will very soon. The game is its biggest strength and ultimately should prevail despite the odds provided the administrative response is appropriate and well targeted.
 

Knownothing

Juniors
Messages
764
No surprise that the rugby community would downplay everything they done to rugby league, I wouldn't be surprised if some even justified the banning of rugby league due to league being the professional code first and bringing rugby players away during the initial split and onward.


It was not only in rugby union that professionals were banned from competing.


The Olympic Games was only for amateur athletes until 1986. Until then, professionals, including rugby league players, were banned from competing.


Tennis was amateur until 1968. There was no prize money in any of the established tournaments, including Wimbledon, the US, French, and Australian Opens. Only legitimate travel expenses could be reimbursed. Some of our very best tennis players, including the great Rod Laver spent their best years playing night after night in the professional circuit, earning a buck.


Cricket was effectively amateur in Australia until the Packer revolution. There was professionalism in English cricket, but it was mostly confined to the Lancashire League. Mainstream county cricket was mostly comprised of amateurs. The English captain was always an amateur for many years. Most grounds had separate dressing rooms for amateurs and professionals. An annual game was held between the "Gentlemen" and the "Players".


We lost some good cricketers because they either had to retire too young, or they went to play in the Lancashire League, and were then unavailable to play for Australia.


Are you feeling outraged about all this discrimination?


Amateurism was a very important ideal in the days of the British Empire. Rugby union was one of the last sports to allow full professionalism. But it was not the only one to disallow professionals from playing.
 
Messages
14,139
All bullshit.

Not only did Union ban anyone who played even a single game of rugby league, whether they were paid or not, but they actually removed their names from all records. What other sport did that? That's before you factor in the shamateurism that completely negates any high and mighty ethos Union liked to hold. Not only that but the sport basically proved it had been wrong for 100 years by turning fully pro at exactly the same time as RL.

As for all this other shut about other sports being amateur, it is irrelevant to the issue of discrimination because these sports weren't actively trying to suppress professional sports. Trying to pretend this is an issue of discrimination against professional sportspeople instead of an issue about discriminating against rugby league as a sport is just the kind of disingenuous crap that shows how desperate Union is to deny, ignore, forget, suppress, conceal and paper over any of its appalling actions over the past 120 years - many of which continue to this day.
 

LeagueXIII

First Grade
Messages
5,969
Exactly, the union boys supplied jobs, under the table payments etc.Why do you think players like Campese and Lynagh played in Italy in the 80's? I can tell you it wasn't for the standard of rugby.
Read ex kiwi coach Graham Lowe's book, in it he says he played union for his school and snuck off to play league and was actually caned for playing league.
Who does this to a boy for playing sport of his choice?
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
It was not only in rugby union that professionals were banned from competing.


The Olympic Games was only for amateur athletes until 1986. Until then, professionals, including rugby league players, were banned from competing.


Tennis was amateur until 1968. There was no prize money in any of the established tournaments, including Wimbledon, the US, French, and Australian Opens. Only legitimate travel expenses could be reimbursed. Some of our very best tennis players, including the great Rod Laver spent their best years playing night after night in the professional circuit, earning a buck.


Cricket was effectively amateur in Australia until the Packer revolution. There was professionalism in English cricket, but it was mostly confined to the Lancashire League. Mainstream county cricket was mostly comprised of amateurs. The English captain was always an amateur for many years. Most grounds had separate dressing rooms for amateurs and professionals. An annual game was held between the "Gentlemen" and the "Players".


We lost some good cricketers because they either had to retire too young, or they went to play in the Lancashire League, and were then unavailable to play for Australia.


Are you feeling outraged about all this discrimination?


Amateurism was a very important ideal in the days of the British Empire. Rugby union was one of the last sports to allow full professionalism. But it was not the only one to disallow professionals from playing.

Perfect timing Knownothing! You have provided the example of "irrelevant information" and going off on another tangent. The issue is widespread discrimination of a sport(RL) that has been of systematic proportions like no other. Given that the sport, despite such blocks, has managed to prove popular is a reflection on how good a sport the RU bigots have been suppressing. Let rugby league be played in all schools(just like other codes) and we have made progress. Otherwise, the status quo reeks of inequity and unfairness.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
It was not only in rugby union that professionals were banned from competing.


The Olympic Games was only for amateur athletes until 1986. Until then, professionals, including rugby league players, were banned from competing.


Tennis was amateur until 1968. There was no prize money in any of the established tournaments, including Wimbledon, the US, French, and Australian Opens. Only legitimate travel expenses could be reimbursed. Some of our very best tennis players, including the great Rod Laver spent their best years playing night after night in the professional circuit, earning a buck.


Cricket was effectively amateur in Australia until the Packer revolution. There was professionalism in English cricket, but it was mostly confined to the Lancashire League. Mainstream county cricket was mostly comprised of amateurs. The English captain was always an amateur for many years. Most grounds had separate dressing rooms for amateurs and professionals. An annual game was held between the "Gentlemen" and the "Players".


We lost some good cricketers because they either had to retire too young, or they went to play in the Lancashire League, and were then unavailable to play for Australia.


Are you feeling outraged about all this discrimination?


Amateurism was a very important ideal in the days of the British Empire. Rugby union was one of the last sports to allow full professionalism. But it was not the only one to disallow professionals from playing.


The comparison is ludicrous and as good a deflection as one could conjure up.There was nothing wrong with being amateur.But the audacity to earn money to cover injuries and loss of earnings was a natural progression.

The sports might have been banned from competing by their own bodies or by an International body such as the OP ,but they were not banned by their competitors.Or lobbied Govts to have them removed or not access insurances.
You need to look up the historical aspect.


Rugby union officials pressured employers at times to not employ rl players because they were paid.

No other sport on this planet ,has gone to the extent union has over the many decades to try to have a competitor removed or make their position intolerable or untenable.Even to the extent of flirtation with Govts such as Vichy and a SA apartheid Govt.
In just about any debate when this subject matter comes up,the either intentional or naive lack of acknowledgement by unionists to the degree of bastardry against rl,is there for all to see or hear.

Here is a classic example of shamateurism in union.
Wales 1895-1995
"When it came to Wales ,the union authorities adopted a different approach, which amounted to turning a blind eye to shamateurism.
Everyone knew that Welsh clubs were paying players long before the Northern Union came on the scene..
It was not a case of "going north " from Wales,but of coming North " from the West Country'
With a nod and wink, they were given tacit permission to carry on as before -and they did that for nearly 100 years until the advent of open professionalism.
For all the posturing to insist that they were occupying the moral high ground, there were plenty of devious deeds in the Valleys.
Players who had crossed the rugby divide were chucked out of clubhouses, scouts from the North were chased out of town-and all this while money from the turnstiles or car parks was going into selected boots."

A
sk Roy Masters when he was at St George about a high profile union player ,who refused a huge contract, and ended up with a home unit by remaining in his then code.
 
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Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
The comparison is ludicrous and as good a deflection as one could conjure up.There was nothing wrong with being amateur.But the audacity to earn money to cover injuries and loss of earnings was a natural progression.

The sports might have been banned from competing by their own bodies or by an International body such as the OP ,but they were not banned by their competitors.Or lobbied Govts to have them removed or not access insurances.
You need to look up the historical aspect.


Rugby union officials pressured employers at times to not employ rl players because they were paid.

No other sport on this planet ,has gone to the extent union has over the many decades to try to have a competitor removed or make their position intolerable or untenable.Even to the extent of flirtation with Govts such as Vichy and a SA apartheid Govt.
In just about any debate when this subject matter comes up,the either intentional or naive lack of acknowledgement by unionists to the degree of bastardry against rl,is there for all to see or hear.

Here is a classic example of shamateurism in union.
Wales 1895-1995
"When it came to Wales ,the union authorities adopted a different approach, which amounted to turning a blind eye to shamateurism.
Everyone knew that Welsh clubs were paying players long before the Northern Union came on the scene..
It was not a case of "going north " from Wales,but of coming North " from the West Country'
With a nod and wink, they were given tacit permission to carry on as before -and they did that for nearly 100 years until the advent of open professionalism.
For all the posturing to insist that they were occupying the moral high ground, there were plenty of devious deeds in the Valleys.
Players who had crossed the rugby divide were chucked out of clubhouses, scouts from the North were chased out of town-and all this while money from the turnstiles or car parks was going into selected boots."

A
sk Roy Masters when he was at St George about a high profile union player ,who refused a huge contract, and ended up with a home unit by remaining in his then code.

Yes. Another example , though small but true is:
Two Aussie employees were sacked by their Japanese company on the Monday after returning to work from playing a charity rugby league game on a given weekend in 2015.

It's just a real shame that so many people are unaware of the dirty tricks used behind the scenes virtually everywhere. And you throw in the lack of private school access for rugby league as another unknown example!
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,765
Best form of defence is a good attack

RL needs to set uts defensive pattern and then attack

First and most important in each nation is to lobby the Government to acknowledge that RL is a seperate sport to RU

SO biggest question is why do so many governments think.we are not a seperate sport ?

Think about how you explain when Gridiron stopped being Rugby. They didnt start pasing a ball forward till 30-50 years later
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Best form of defence is a good attack

RL needs to set uts defensive pattern and then attack

First and most important in each nation is to lobby the Government to acknowledge that RL is a seperate sport to RU

SO biggest question is why do so many governments think.we are not a seperate sport ?

Think about how you explain when Gridiron stopped being Rugby. They didnt start pasing a ball forward till 30-50 years later

The answer to the separate sport question is easy. Most government agencies are not aware of rugby league due to it being an outcast of many educational institutions. For example, colleges in the USA generally know of RU as the well travelled and mostly privately educated mix in such circles. Rugby league has been left on the outer because of its lack of presence in many scholastic systems worldwide.

If rugby league has the access to all forms of education(meaning particularly secondary private schools) then this distinction problem for rugby league as to union would not be so common. But this lack of recognition and acknowledgement is due to the "shunning" of the game of rugby league in the "top" echelon of education. And we are getting an idea why this "shunning" has happened!(Thanks to RU influences) It's a shame that the general public are not aware of this wide scale bigotry that has been so deceitfully exercised for so many years. Now, for this to be common knowledge would be one significant positive step for rugby league's destiny as it will answer many questions as to why the game has been slow to grow around the world.
 
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Whatwhere

Juniors
Messages
365
The answer to the separate sport question is easy. Most government agencies are not aware of rugby league due to it being an outcast of many educational institutions. For example, colleges in the USA generally know of RU as the well travelled and mostly privately educated mix in such circles. Rugby league has been left on the outer because of its lack of presence in many scholastic systems worldwide.

If rugby league has the access to all forms of education(meaning particularly secondary private schools) then this distinction problem for rugby league as to union would not be so common. But this lack of recognition and acknowledgement is due to the "shunning" of the game of rugby league in the "top" echelon of education. And we are getting an idea why this "shunning" has happened!(Thanks to RU influences) It's a shame that the general public are not aware of this wide scale bigotry that has been so deceitfully exercised for so many years. Now, for this to be common knowledge would be one significant positive step for rugby league's destiny as it will answer many questions as to why the game has been slow to grow around the world.

Rugby League does have access to all these institutions in Australia. I attended a Secondary Private School as you put it. As did the likes of Ryan Hoffman, Chris Lawrence and so on and so on. As did everyone else from the 12 other schools we used to play League against. There are probably more Secondary Private Schools playing League in NSW than Rugby.

As for Uni's. I have two degrees from two institutions. Sydney Uni and Wollongong Uni. League was played at both but the respective Rugby clubs happen to be bigger. Doesn't mean it was restricted.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Rugby League does have access to all these institutions in Australia. I attended a Secondary Private School as you put it. As did the likes of Ryan Hoffman, Chris Lawrence and so on and so on. As did everyone else from the 12 other schools we used to play League against. There are probably more Secondary Private Schools playing League in NSW than Rugby.

As for Uni's. I have two degrees from two institutions. Sydney Uni and Wollongong Uni. League was played at both but the respective Rugby clubs happen to be bigger. Doesn't mean it was restricted.

I have two degrees as well. I'm aware of rugby league at both of those unis and they(RL clubs) are hardly the establishment! Wonder why? I should have qualified my statement with the exception of Catholic(Irish) secondary private schools.

And I'm absolutely certain that more secondary private schools play/allow union to be played as opposed to league. Have you heard of Knox, Grammar, Joeys, Kings....etc? You are surely joking! I note you are labeling union as "Rugby" which shows your real colours. Once again, another RU type dude aiming to deflect the very real issue of widespread bigotry within the majority of the RU influenced private schools. It's pretty logical what we are discussing and you have once again provided a perfect example of a RU type attempt to deflect and misinform for the sake of destabilising this very tell tale discourse its rightful positive momentum. I was school 'footy' captain and 'footy' was rugby league back then and I played union as well. This was a public secondary school.
 

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