Why ignore our history?

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Well that’s your view (and fair enough) but my view would be that some of what he submits is right and some of what he puts is wrong.

I was considering your side of the point this morning and I throw down the challenge to the muzster and ask that if history and culture is different, how come we have the academic discipline of cultural history?

Cultural historians look at and interpret changes in a particular culture over time.

They are inseparable in this context.

There would be a lot of material arising from examining changes in aboriginal cultures say after 1788 to date.

As an aside, there’s a story today about the hordes of idiot tourists desecrating Uluru before it’s “closed.”

One piece of ( non aboriginal) cultural history best binned! I look at these photos and I just get the urge to push these brain dead philistine red necks off the rock or take sniper shots at them ( rubber bullets, no horror please!)

I might take up the muzsters side of the argument tommorrow!

Sounds like you have a bright future as bunker ref....

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

Not quite inseparable. You have noted culture changes over time, and the historical study of these changes is looking at what has already occurred in times past, to which point those changes can’t be erased - they are now part of history.

Culture is the element that changes, not the history.

Firstly, thank you for the response.

Ok, I will try another avenue and see what you make of it.

You might be looking at history as irrevocable and inviolate fact ( unless we master time travel and issues involved in changing past events) then we have no choice but to deal with it.

But let me suggest that culture is a more intangible and better seen as an artificial construct as opposed to having a basis in observable fact, it is an interpretation or perception of fact. History itself is person-made, it cannot be accounted for in the absence of the prevailing or adopted cultural lense.

If that’s the case, try as we might, we may be stuck fast with the inseparability of culture and history.

Doomed to adopt not historical “fact” but previous interpretations of facts and perhaps Further diluted by our own personal experiences and cultural beliefs and practices.

 

[Mr Angry]

Once were warriors

I will show myself out....

 

[muzby]

Firstly, thank you for the response.

Ok, I will try another avenue and see what you make of it.

You might be looking at history as irrevocable and inviolate fact ( unless we master time travel and issues involved in changing past events) then we have no choice but to deal with it.

But let me suggest that culture is a more intangible and better seen as an artificial construct as opposed to having a basis in observable fact, it is an interpretation or perception of fact. History itself is person-made, it cannot be accounted for in the absence of the prevailing or adopted cultural lense.

If that’s the case, try as we might, we may be stuck fast with the inseparability of culture and history.

Doomed to adopt not historical “fact” but previous interpretations of facts and perhaps Further diluted by our own personal experiences and cultural beliefs and practices.

I think we’re both in agreeable that culture is the changeable beast in all of this..

And that changing culture can change the lens through which history is viewed..

But not all history is created by man..

Let’s take dinosaurs for example.. When the bones of those delightful lizards were found in medieval times, they were believed to be dragons, and so spurned the legend..

So historically, dinosaurs existed.. But this wasn’t known or recognised by our forefathers..

It was only as we evolved and developed our tools and understandings that we knew what these “dragons” actually were..

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

I think we’re both in agreeable that culture is the changeable beast in all of this..

And that changing culture can change the lens through which history is viewed..

But not all history is created by man..

Let’s take dinosaurs for example.. When the bones of those delightful lizards were found in medieval times, they were believed to be dragons, and so spurned the legend..

So historically, dinosaurs existed.. But this wasn’t known or recognised by our forefathers..

It was only as we evolved and developed our tools and understandings that we knew what these “dragons” actually were..

Thanks.

A couple of potential points with this interesting line of argument.

1. that it was men in those medieval times that projected their cultural understandings onto the awesome prehistoric lizards.

2. We are now inclined to push our cultural beliefs onto the dinosaurs and explaining them with our cultural understanding of science.

3. So long as we have man interpreting the findings, we can’t escape from cultural biases.

4. You are positing an objective truth without recourse to non-human sources.

5. If we accept that our interpretation of the beasts change in 5000 years, entombed friends may be described and known and known as something else.

Some time in the future, God or an alien may appear and clean the issue up for us factually, but I think we are still immersed in our current understanding of things, by virtue of what I understand culture to be.

perhaps too, we are a bit taken by the “ how smart are we now” culture and think we are the bees knees on that. Some of our indigenous friends may take issue with our absolutism!

 

[Mr Angry]

James Graham knows dinasours.

 

[muzby]

Thanks.

A couple of potential points with this interesting line of argument.

1. that it was men in those medieval times that projected their cultural understandings onto the awesome prehistoric lizards.

2. We are now inclined to push our cultural beliefs onto the dinosaurs and explaining them with our cultural understanding of science.

3. So long as we have man interpreting the findings, we can’t escape from cultural biases.

4. You are positing an objective truth without recourse to non-human sources.

5. If we accept that our interpretation of the beasts change in 5000 years, entombed friends may be described and known and known as something else.

Some time in the future, God or an alien may appear and clean the issue up for us factually, but I think we are still immersed in our current understanding of things, by virtue of what I understand culture to be.

perhaps too, we are a bit taken by the “ how smart are we now” culture and think we are the bees knees on that. Some of our indigenous friends may take issue with our absolutism!

Every generation believes they are the smartest..

Eg.. Of course the earth is flat & not round.. Disagree? Here’s a stake & some fire to change your mind..

Asbestos sheeting? What a great product.. Let’s build houses out of it..

No doubt some of our findings will be disproved by generations to come, but for now it’s how we view our world..

If we keep on the dinosaurs, it’s undeniable that we have found the bones of something that lived in the past..

1000 years ago they were dragons.. Right now they’re dinosaurs..

Who knows what they’ll be known as in another 1000 years time..

Regardless of their names or how they fit into our culture, the bones are still there..



Which also gets me thinking.. Given St George “slayed a dragon”, did he just bring back some dinosaur bones & took credit for it?

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

Every generation believes they are the smartest..

Eg.. Of course the earth is flat & not round.. Disagree? Here’s a stake & some fire to change your mind..

Asbestos sheeting? What a great product.. Let’s build houses out of it..

No doubt some of our findings will be disproved by generations to come, but for now it’s how we view our world..

If we keep on the dinosaurs, it’s undeniable that we have found the bones of something that lived in the past..

1000 years ago they were dragons.. Right now they’re dinosaurs..

Who knows what they’ll be known as in another 1000 years time..

Regardless of their names or how they fit into our culture, the bones are still there..



Which also gets me thinking.. Given St George “slayed a dragon”, did he just bring back some dinosaur bones & took credit for it?

Well, we think they are bones and we think they were and are there. That’s the catch.

They could be something else and they may not have been there in the time we impose on them.

We apply our constructs.

The medieval knight lady just wouldn’t believe our outrageous dinosaur nonsense story, her culture wouldn’t allow it. Sire , ‘Tis a dragon of olde you nuncle !

In this argument for me at least, nothing is undeniable, it really depends on what you believe.

Next year an alien spaceship lands in Rockdale with a dinosaur pilot and he makes the statement to the effect that Issac Luke should be club captain.

If we can trust our senses, then I will accept the absolutist argument without so much as a whimper!

 

[muzby]

James Graham knows dinasours.

Can you get him to ask them what they prefer to be called?

 

[Mr Angry]

Just not evil red headed step child.

 

[Dragonsamy]

Call it what you want. Culture / DNA / history / etc etc etc...


Blame Mary or our roster all you wish. Until the board of directors start changing the path we are on, then expect the status quo to continue.

This isn't a " one off " season. Its a decade of failure, and it reaches well beyond an incompetent coach.

Nailed it True.
I could not agree more

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

I suppose I should swing about now and argue that culture and history are exclusive of each other.

Muz has argued that it doesn’t matter what out view is, things exist independently of our concepts of them.

The expanding universe. Does that depend on our experience of it, and if so, do we have proof.

You see light from distant galaxies, takes so many billions of years to reach us from far away galaxies, that this stuff seems to have been there way before our planet existed. That is to say, that there was no sign of a human or culture, yet the star stuff existed. Hmmm.

So this astronomical history seems impervious to any sense of culture and must be distinct.

Not a strong argument, but a start anyway.

 

[muzby]

I suppose I should swing about now and argue that culture and history are exclusive of each other.

Muz has argued that it doesn’t matter what out view is, things exist independently of our concepts of them.

The expanding universe. Does that depend on our experience of it, and if so, do we have proof.

You see light from distant galaxies, takes so many billions of years to reach us from far away galaxies, that this stuff seems to have been there way before our planet existed. That is to say, that there was no sign of a human or culture, yet the star stuff existed. Hmmm.

So this astronomical history seems impervious to any sense of culture and must be distinct.

Not a strong argument, but a start anyway.

You could also have used the whole tree falling in the forest but no one hearing it thing..

 

[Willow]

Thankyou for clarity.
Hypothetically, if St George buy wincorp out or if wincorp sells its company to an offshore investor or if they go broke! Do St George dragons get their full identity back and then be able to add to its last grand final win of 1979?

It's already there. 16 premiership to St George. Illawarra have one.

A joint venture does not mean that either side has to give up their history. The two entities still maintain their individualism but have decided to join forces to achieve certain goals.

The Dragons JV is an odd one because Illawarra's stake is so small - one token board member. They really have no financial stake and have very little say in how the JV is run. And yet, the JV still has Illawarra in the name. I'm not sure why, I can only imagine that this is what WIN Corp want - perhaps due to their business holdings on the South Coast and they want to promote the Illawarra brand. Or maybe it is to keep the NRL happy. I'd be interested to hear another reason.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

You could also have used the whole tree falling in the forest but no one hearing it thing..

I suppose.

I am just ambling along the track with no particular impression to convey.

I was cheered by your painting of the dinosaurs in a favourable light.

Maybe in the future, science can resurrect the dinosaurs and we can have smaller ones as pets.

A genetically modified junior-sized pet Pterodactyl terrorising the passer-by would bring significant joy to the elderly and socially estranged.

 

[TruSaint]

It's already there. 16 premiership to St George. Illawarra have one.

A joint venture does not mean that either side has to give up their history. The two entities still maintain their individualism but have decided to join forces to achieve certain goals.

The Dragons JV is an odd one because Illawarra's stake is so small - one token board member. They really have no financial stake and have very little say in how the JV is run. And yet, the JV still has Illawarra in the name. I'm not sure why, I can only imagine that this is what WIN Corp want - perhaps due to their business holdings on the South Coast and they want to promote the Illawarra brand. Or maybe it is to keep the NRL happy. I'd be interested to hear another reason.

I get your point about the JV, however, if we adopt the (Saints have 16 and Illawarra have 1) viewpoint, that would mean as a collective we have won 17 titles...

As fans, we can argue your point, but I think history will record it as 15 and 1.

 

[muzby]

I get your point about the JV, however, if we adopt the (Saints have 16 and Illawarra have 1) viewpoint, that would mean as a collective we have won 17 titles...

As fans, we can argue your point, but I think history will record it as 15 and 1.

It’s only like that if you add them together.. The JV title is shared by both parties..

So St George have won 16, but one was with the assistance of Illawarra..

And Illawarra have won 1, with the assistance of St George..

I’d go into the whole point around how all 16 premierships are with the support of Illawarra and none were won bybSt George as a stand-alone but that tends to get people boiling the tar and plucking the chickens..

 

[muzby]

Maybe in the future, science can resurrect the dinosaurs and we can have smaller ones as pets.

A genetically modified junior-sized pet Pterodactyl terrorising the passer-by would bring significant joy to the elderly and socially estranged.

Until that day occurs you can always just piss off the local magpies during spring..

Gives a similar effect..

 

[SBD82]

History is the events that have occurred.

Culture is the lens through which we view those events.

 

[TruSaint]

It’s only like that if you add them together.. The JV title is shared by both parties..

So St George have won 16, but one was with the assistance of Illawarra..

And Illawarra have won 1, with the assistance of St George..

I’d go into the whole point around how all 16 premierships are with the support of Illawarra and none were won bybSt George as a stand-alone but that tends to get people boiling the tar and plucking the chickens..

Muz, any way one cuts it, its a total of 16 premierships.

My point is that any reference to titles won in the future will always default back to stand alone Saints as 15 and the JV as one. I personally can argue the point with other fans, and refer to our link to the Illawarra, that Saints kept the logo, and so forth...

Wont change the records books.