18th club, whose next?

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I’m not alone
I have doubts oerth will ever get a team, not because it couldn’t be successful but because this is rugba league, I have doubts about our ability to build a competitive squad in early years, I have doubts about level of govt support as we do t know what that looks like. not being involved with tehbcurrent interested parties i have no idea what ten busines case looks like, hopefully it stacks up and provides a compelling case to the arlc and they are open and brave enough to make our game a national comp.

png the issues and concerns are very real and very obvious. it’s a developing nation ffs, what professional domestic sports competition in the world has a developing nation joining a developed nation comp?

This is the most logical post you've made in months.

 

[Iamback]

Firstly, they play in seperate seasons. You keep refusing to acknowledge this pretty obvious fact. Of most importance is the standard is poor. If the standard was say equivalent to a European league then the interest would have been maintained. It’s not that hard to work out.

Valid points, except you missed we have too many sports here for our population and corporate size.

That is why the game is pushing for Vegas and to expand overseas

 

[Perth Red]

You keep on repeating this bullshit claim, despite the fact it's been debunked on numerous occasions.

The Reds best ever season saw them draw an average of 13,390 to their home games. Their other two seasons drew just 8,262 and 8,776. If this is what a Perth-based RL team drew when it had 10k registered players then it has f**k all chance in 2024. There was just 4.1k registered players in WA a couple of years ago.

Ignore it all you want, but the Glory drew 14,979 in 1997-98. The NSL was less popular than the A-League is today.

Force were drawing 27k to their games in their debut season. Reds drew just 13,390 in their debut season.

The facts don't support the bullshit you're trying to spin.

Different times, grassroots participation numbers and professional sports clubs attendance have little correlation, if they did Aleague would have epl attendances.
Perths never had a crowd of 45k for nrl games before. I have little doubt if SL hadn’t happened and reds had successfully kept building, they had a stonking jnr set up, then crowds would have grown as they have right across the nrl for majority of clubs.
at no point in reds brief history did they ever have the lowest avg attendance in the comp.

but let’s look to tomorrow and stop quoting irrelevant 27 year olds ata shall we?

 

[Colk]

You should

Apply your own history and your brief flirtation with the Swans as a case in point. It’s called hype. You came to the realisation that you didn’t like it after a while and hence you stopped watching it. But you did consume it for a brief period (at least according to yourself)

I used to go to Jets games frequently for a couple of years with a friend of mine. I came to realise after a while that the standard of play wasn’t particularly good; moreover when it’s compared to the standard of much better leagues. Why would I continue to spend $30 a game watching a pretty inferior product when I can stay at home and watch a far better product in the comfort of my own home.

 

[Perth Red]

On a single year minimum deal?

I have no doubt give them a 3-4 year deal on decent money some would go.

Dolphins showed how hard it is to fill out a squad. Cows, Warriors even Canberra have very few if any single year recruits

As I said, You aren't going to sell your house on a one year deal. Stuff like that particularly with school aged kids.

How did they do it in 1995?

 

[Colk]

Valid points, except you missed we have too many sports here for our population and corporate size.

That is why the game is pushing for Vegas and to expand overseas

Totally agree. It’s a good thing that we are doing so long as we follow through on it.

On the too many sports, you are right to a degree. None of these sports will die though I wouldn’t think.

 

[jim_57]

On a single year minimum deal?

I have no doubt give them a 3-4 year deal on decent money some would go.

Dolphins showed how hard it is to fill out a squad. Cows, Warriors even Canberra have very few if any single year recruits

As I said, You aren't going to sell your house on a one year deal. Stuff like that particularly with school aged kids.

How many minimum wage players or fringe NRL players only able to get 1 year deals have a house in Sydney or Brisbane? I’d be surprised if any banks are signing off on $1m mortgages for the lower paid guys with next to zero job security.

Young people suddenly finding themselves with decent money are also well known to be prone to pissing it away.

 

[Iamback]

Totally agree. It’s a good thing that we are doing so long as we follow through on it.

On the too many sports, you are right to a degree. None of these sports will die though I wouldn’t think.

Which is why I am happy for the Vegas push to be locked in for 5 years

Even to go to PNG earlier then normal - I still don't think it happens.

3 sports that come to mind that are struggling Netball, Rugby, Soccer all have a national presence.

2/3 are on a Network other than Fox.

So while they would no doubt benefit the game, They aren't a certainty take the game to the next.

All are too big to die, Whether they stay National competitions is the question

 

[Bukowski]

Good to see the two other f**kwits have taken up pippens void.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

You know as well as I do that the A-League’s problems are completely seperate to the NRL/AFL and to try and rather ineptly conjure a correlation between these leagues is ridiculous to the extreme.

If you want to use fumbleball as a yardstick that’s fair enough. But the A-League? Seriously?

The A-League is a poorly run competition which can’t compete globally in terms of talent, coaching and administration. That is the problem that the A-League faces. These are problems that Rugby League and fumbleball don’t face. Also, with regards to crowds (bringing up from 1990’s) you might want to reflect on the indisputable fact that soccer and union crowds have essentially fallen off a cliff everywhere. Not just in Perth but everywhere.

FMD.

The NSL was a bigger basket case than the A-League. It had more trouble attracting and retaining talent. It didn't stop the Perth Glory from drawing 14,979 to their games in 1997-98.

If you really want to use context have a look at the crowds that the Glory or the Roar or Jets or anybody else had and then compare it to now. You can do the same with Union. Their crowds have dropped what 50-60% over the last 20 years. Their competitions are bordering on irrelevance now.

The NSL was drawing less across the board in 2003-04 than the A-League is drawing in 2023-24. It was the laat season of the NSL. Crowds were down, but Perth Glory drew 9,470 in 03-04, versus 5,305 in 23-24.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003–04_National_Soccer_League

Attendance Statistics :: Totals / Averages (Home Club) :: Ultimate A-League

From the Attendance Statistics section, you access crowd statistics for all A-League Men's competition seasons and matches.

www.ultimatealeague.com

I bet you also twenty years ago, outside of say the Broncos or the Cowboys and maybe the Knights that every league team had s*** crowds. For example average crowds during Super League and ARL and before that even were less on average that what Super Rugby were getting. Probably even less than what the A-League were getting initially. Did you factor in this or does that not help your argument?
[/QUOTE]

The NRL average for 2003 was 14,469. Storm averaged just 9,626 with a team that finished 5th on the ladder.

Rugby League Tables / Attendances 2003

Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables

afltables.com

The first A-League season drew an average 11,628 in 05-06

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Oh joy we’re on a back to the for future trip again!

do you understand the concept of context? You’re comparing the glory days of perth glory, new to the comp, quality team heading for top of table and premierships with a club in the middle of a war that had split the fans, clubs and whole game and turned many away,

youre sling for the unprovable. What we know for fact is oerth is wealthy city with a lot of rich corporates based here, we also know there’s a number of rich company owners who like rugby league here. Does that mean we’ll have big sponsorship portfolio? I dont know, but there is no real reason it should be anymore an issue than for any other club,

I’ve shown you the figures, 15k crowd avg, 20k members and $7-10mill in corporate support and the club will be fine. That’s very achievable for a club in a major sports comp in australias 4th largest city by population and richest city by disposable income.

You said an NRL club in Perth will generate more money than the Perth Glory because the NRL has a larger profile than the A-League.

The facts don't support your bullshit narrative. Just 8k FTA and 5k PTV NRL viewers in Perth.

The Perth Glory had a larger profile than the Western Reds when they competed in a dying soccer competition that had a lower profile than the A-League.

There's no guarantee that a Perth-based NRL club will average 15-17k to its games and generate $7m or more from football operations. Everything you say is based on hope and delusion because you're emotionally invested in a Perth-based team.

The fact you're now bringing up on field success to dismiss the Glory's support in the 90s f**ks up your argument. There's no way a Perth-based NRL team will be a juggernaut on the field like the Perth Glory, Perth Wildcats, Perth Scorchers and Melbourne Storm. The Reds won 50% of their games in 1995 and drew the smallest crowds out of the four expansion clubs.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Attracting the established stars will be challenging without concessions. personally if I was setting the club up I’d go to SL and try and sign the best 5 established English SL stars, the best 5 u20 English players to reserve grade and 3 or 4 ex nrl players over there who can still offer something in nrl. Then try and build a competent squad from other nrl players and invest heavily in WA development and partner with a nsw cup or qrl cup club, or both, so in 5 years or so we have jnrs coming through committed to the club,

Translation: Perth needs concessions to cut it and that's okay, but PNG is bad because it needs concessions.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Might as well just relocate Wigan

He's willing to weaken the entire Super League just so Perth can field a team that doesn't finish last. If he's so desperate for a team then let Perth raid Hull KR blind until it is relegated to the second division.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

False eloquence, I just don’t see the same levels of issues.

christchurch I see its issues being financial viability for an nrl club in small city where union is god. And there is no serious backers at this time.

perth I see player recruitment and retention as being the biggest issue and dependant on what govt is offering to sweeten deal

easts I see an issue in new market demand and strategic Importance for the game long term

png, that’s just got issues everywhere you look and if it wasn’t for our govt’s largesse with our money wouldn’t be considered in a month of sundays

most options issues are solve able except png, imo.

You just confirmed everything WB1234 and I have been saying about your inability to think objectively.

Arguing that the Brisbane Tigers have issues with "market demand" is complete bullshit. The inclusion of the Dolphins added 40k members to the game. TV ratings in Brisbane increased to 170k for the Broncos, 131k for the Cowboys and Titans and 126k for the Dolphins. Broncos and Dolphins averaged 35k and 32k at Lang Park. Player registrations have increased, too.

The two largest and richest rugby league clubs in the world are the Broncos and Dolphins.

The Tigers have $135m in assets and will be one of the 5th richest rugby league clubs in the NRL.

If you want to look at issues regarding market demand, then look no further than Perth. Just 8k people from Perth bothered to watch the NRL on FTA. There's only 4.1k registers players in WA.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Of course you can’t categorically prove that until it actually exists. It is analogous to the uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics: you can’t predict with absolute certainty what will happen (the theory essentially states that it is impossible to predict a measurement of a particles position while also at the same time predict a measurement of its momentum). Essentially you can only argue probabilities of a future event, not a certainty of a future event.

You want to argue negatively on a Perth side based on your evidence (which I don’t see the relevance of seeing the data is nearly thirty years old and the current context has completely changed) whereas you argue favourably for a PNG side (where I see problems that you don’t see or reject)

All of this in this forum is an opinion. That is all that is.

Have I argued in favour of PNG?

I've acknowledged the logistical problems a PNG team will have to overcome. Without Gov funding it's dead in the water. With the Gov funding it is a chance of getting in.

What I have done is question the veracity of the "doom and gloom" claims made on here. I don't doubt that the worst case scenario could happen. What I doubt is the probability of it happening. There are people on here acting as if NRL players will be injured or killed if they play in Port Moresby. It hasn't happened to the PM's XIII, Kangaroos, Lions, Kiwis and Queensland Cup teams that have been playing in Port Moresby since the 1990s.

 

[Bukowski]

Take a pill

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I do t believe media partners will dictate where club 18 is, possibly not club 19-20 either. The value for them in next expansion is content increase, the real value increase for nrl will be in competition for the rights.

f**ken delusional.

 

[The Great Dane]

No it won’t

if you argued Penrith spending more money on juniors would have diminishing returns you would be correct

every club should be investing in juniors

NRL sides spending ever increasing amounts on their juniors systems and elite pathways is irrelevant if the grassroots that feed them are allowed to continue to slowly wither and die. You can't develop juniors that don't exist.

Like it or not that's the position the sport's is getting to in most of the "heartlands", and don't quote me touch, tag, and women's participation growth. No matter how you try to spin it touch and tag will never feed significant amounts of talent into the NRL independently, and the women's game isn't profitable, probably never will be given how it's be set up, and will certainly never grow big enough to be competitive with the men's game in popularity or value.

 

[The Great Dane]

It doesn't cost much to run an A-League club. An NRL club runs on an operating budget of $30-45m.

Soccer is more popular than rugby league in Perth.

The reality is a Perth-based NRL team will have to generate at least 3 to 5 times as much revenue in a market that is mad about fumbleball. Glory have the luxury of not competing directly with the Eagles and Dockers for sponsorship and corporate hospitality. An NRL club will be going head to head with the Eagles, Dockers and Twiggy Forrest's Force.



Newcastle is a rugby league city. Perth isn't.



Gold Coast and Townsville are rugby league cities. Perth isn't.



You're dumb as shit if you cannot see the idiocy of comparing regional rugby league cities, such as Gold Coast, Newcastle and Townsville with a geographically isolated fumbleball city that hates rugby league.

FYI, Cowboys generated more revenue from football operations than every rugby league club in the world except the Broncos in 2022. Let that sink into your brain cell like the blood soaks into your tampon.

The A-league sides are struggling because of chronic mismanagement at all levels and the popularity of the A-league itself, not because of their operating costs or the popularity of soccer in the country you numpty.

Seriously, for the love god, please don't talk about any sport other than RL. You're clueless about RL, but it's beyond embarrassing when you try to discuss any other sport.

BTW, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if RL and the NRL clubs collectively are more popular than the Glory in WA, especially not these days.

 

[The Great Dane]

You know as well as I do that the A-League’s problems are completely seperate to the NRL/AFL and to try and rather ineptly conjure a correlation between these leagues is ridiculous to the extreme.

If you want to use fumbleball as a yardstick that’s fair enough. But the A-League? Seriously?

The A-League is a poorly run competition which can’t compete globally in terms of talent, coaching and administration. That is the problem that the A-League faces. These are problems that Rugby League and fumbleball don’t face. Also, with regards to crowds (bringing up from 1990’s) you might want to reflect on the indisputable fact that soccer and union crowds have essentially fallen off a cliff everywhere. Not just in Perth but everywhere.

If you really want to use context have a look at the crowds that the Glory or the Roar or Jets or anybody else had and then compare it to now. You can do the same with Union. Their crowds have dropped what 50-60% over the last 20 years. Their competitions are bordering on irrelevance now.

I bet you also twenty years ago, outside of say the Broncos or the Cowboys and maybe the Knights that every league team had s*** crowds. For example average crowds during Super League and ARL and before that even were less on average that what Super Rugby were getting. Probably even less than what the A-League were getting initially. Did you factor in this or does that not help your argument?

The funny thing about the A-league is that it could still be successful despite all this if they'd just live within their means, stop the infighting, stop making totally insane and reactionary business decisions, and ignore the delusional elements of their fan base.

Some of the talk about how the APL have handled the Canberra A-league side is insane. Totally looney tunes stuff to the point that I'd suggest that they must be setting it up to fail except for the fact that they're so incompetent that I don't think they're capable of it.