18th club, whose next?

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

The A-league sides are struggling because of chronic mismanagement at all levels and the popularity of the A-league itself, not because of their operating costs or the popularity of soccer in the country you numpty.

Seriously, for the love god, please don't talk about any sport other than RL. You're clueless about RL, but it's beyond embarrassing when you try to discuss any other sport.

BTW, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if RL and the NRL clubs collectively are more popular than the Glory in WA, especially not these days.

You're a blowhard who tries to sound intelligent by using words you don't understand.

All of your predictions about the Dolphins turned out to be bullshit.

You're so stupid you thought the Cowboys have been generating strong revenue from corporate hospitality in the 1990s until now because a nice stadium was opened for them in 2020.

Argue around it all you like, but the fact is the 14,949 spectators who paid to watch the Glory in 97-98 were worth more than the 8,776 who paid to see the Reds in 1997.

There's only 8k people in Perth watching NRL on FTA and just 4.1k registered players.

You wouldn't have a clue how much it costs to run a f**ken NRL club.

 

[The Great Dane]

Dane would be proud of a post like that

Somebody is finding the big words intimidating again are they?

His point was eloquent and well made. You can't prove a negative, and as an expansion on that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence either.

 

[Wb1234]

Different times, grassroots participation numbers and professional sports clubs attendance have little correlation, if they did Aleague would have epl attendances.
Perths never had a crowd of 45k for nrl games before. I have little doubt if SL hadn’t happened and reds had successfully kept building, they had a stonking jnr set up, then crowds would have grown as they have right across the nrl for majority of clubs.
at no point in reds brief history did they ever have the lowest avg attendance in the comp.

but let’s look to tomorrow and stop quoting irrelevant 27 year olds ata shall we?

Could say the same about norths being given a second chance too lol

 

[The Great Dane]

You're a blowhard who tries to sound intelligent by using words you don't understand.

Yawn. . . Try harder.

All of your predictions about the Dolphins turned out to be bullshit.

You're so stupid you thought the Cowboys have been generating strong revenue from corporate hospitality in the 1990s until now because a nice stadium was opened for them in 2020.

Argue around it all you like, but the fact is the 14,949 spectators who paid to watch the Glory in 97-98 were worth more than the 8,776 who paid to see the Reds in 1997.

There's only 8k people in Perth watching NRL on FTA and just 4.1k registered players.

You wouldn't have a clue how much it costs to run a f**ken NRL club.

As the Glory's numbers show, crowd numbers from the 97 season have little relevance to today.

I don't see what relevance any of the rest of this has to why the A-league struggles. . . It's just a random collection of nonsense like normal.

 

[Wb1234]

Somebody is finding the big words intimidating again are they?

His point was eloquent and well made. You can't prove a negative and as an expansion on that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence either.

@Colk are you taking notes ?

 

[Wb1234]

The funny thing about the A-league is that it could still be successful despite all this if they'd just live within their means, stop the infighting, stop making totally insane and reactionary business decisions, and ignore the delusional elements of their fan base.

Some of the talk about how the APL have handled the Canberra A-league side is insane. Totally looney tunes stuff to the point that I'd suggest that they must be setting it up to fail except for the fact that they're so incompetent that I don't think they're capable of it.

History shows Aussies aren’t interested in a local club soccer comp

a league will eventually go the same way as the nsl

suoer rugby will end up being two Aussie sides

 

[The Great Dane]

History shows Aussies aren’t interested in a local club soccer comp

You know, except for those short periods when it's worked...

In the small periods when the sport has been stable and had decent administration club soccer has been relatively successful. The problem is that those circumstances never last long, and that's normally because of infighting or problems within the sport it's self more than anything.

a league will eventually go the same way as the nsl

That's probably true if things keep going the way they are. The FFA will probably try to take control of the A-league back from the APL if that looks likely though. A lot of people within the sport would celebrate the A-league's failure as well, which is emblematic of soccer's biggest issues in this country.

If the A-league fails it's likely that it'd be replaced with an NSL 2.0 of sorts, which will struggle for pretty much all the same reasons that the old NSL failed.

suoer rugby will end up being two Aussie sides

Three maybe, but two would cause a whole host of other issues that SR isn't in a position to address at the moment.

It's just as likely that the whole competition will collapse before that happens as well, which would be interesting to see. Anything could happen at that point. In the past the Kiwi's have discussed inviting a single Australian team to join their new pro comp should SR collapse, kind of like the Kiwi teams in Australian competitions, which would also be interesting to see happen though I doubt it'd be successful in the long run.

 

[Wb1234]

You know, except for those short periods when it's worked...

In the small periods when the sport has been stable and had decent administration club soccer has been relatively successful. The problem is that those circumstances never last long, and that's normally because of infighting or problems within the sport it's self more than anything.

That's probably true if things keep going the way they are. The FFA will probably try to take control of the A-league back from the APL if that looks likely though. A lot of people within the sport would celebrate the A-league's failure as well, which is emblematic of soccer's biggest issues in this country.

If the A-league fails it's likely that it'd be replaced with an NSL 2.0 of sorts, which will struggle for pretty much all the same reasons that the old NSL failed.

Three maybe, but two would cause a whole host of other issues that SR isn't in a position to address at the moment.

It's just as likely that the whole competition will collapse before that happens as well, which would be interesting to see. Anything could happen at that point. In the past the Kiwi's have discussed inviting a single Australian team to join their new pro comp should SR collapse, kind of like the Kiwi teams in Australian competitions, which would also be interesting to see happen though I doubt it'd be successful in the long run.

Kiwis and Japan with token Aussie plus Argentina

also two South African sides to join (ones not in the European comp)

 

[The Great Dane]

Kiwis and Japan with token Aussie plus Argentina

also two South African sides to join (ones not in the European comp)

That's not realistically feasible, and they'd be repeating SR's past mistakes and stretching themselves too thin.

2020 and 2021 were the most successful SR seasons in recent times on both sides of the Tasman. Public interest and good will was up across the board. In an ideal world spilt national competitions are the way forward, probably with a Champions League style competition after the domestic seasons to fill out the season. That's what should have happened after covid, but I don't know how feasible it'd be here in Australia anymore given the ARU's situation.

The JRFU and major Japanese clubs have shown interest in some sort of interleague competition with the SR sides for a while now, so that's how you could bring them into the fold, and you could potentially invite others to be involved in that league as well.

 

[Wb1234]

That's not realistically feasible, and they'd be repeating SR's past mistakes and stretching themselves too thin.

2020 and 2021 were the most successful SR seasons in recent times on both sides of the Tasman. Public interest and good will was up across the board. In an ideal world spilt national competitions are the way forward, probably with a Champions League style competition after the domestic seasons to fill out the season. That's what should have happened after covid, but I don't know how feasible it'd be here in Australia anymore given the ARU's situation.

The JRFU and major Japanese clubs have shown interest in some sort of interleague competition with the SR sides for a while now, so that's how you could bring them into the fold, and you could potentially invite others to be involved in that league as well.

Australia can’t compete with nz

Aussie nz comp is a failure

 

[Canard]

You said an NRL club in Perth will generate more money than the Perth Glory because the NRL has a larger profile than the A-League.

The facts don't support your bullshit narrative. Just 8k FTA and 5k PTV NRL viewers in Perth.

The Perth Glory had a larger profile than the Western Reds when they competed in a dying soccer competition that had a lower profile than the A-League.

There's no guarantee that a Perth-based NRL club will average 15-17k to its games and generate $7m or more from football operations. Everything you say is based on hope and delusion because you're emotionally invested in a Perth-based team.

The fact you're now bringing up on field success to dismiss the Glory's support in the 90s f**ks up your argument. There's no way a Perth-based NRL team will be a juggernaut on the field like the Perth Glory, Perth Wildcats, Perth Scorchers and Melbourne Storm. The Reds won 50% of their games in 1995 and drew the smallest crowds out of the four expansion clubs.

Aren't you just reinforcing, over and over ad nauseum, that Perth has has a strong attendance culture and history?

 

[Colk]

Have I argued in favour of PNG?

I've acknowledged the logistical problems a PNG team will have to overcome. Without Gov funding it's dead in the water. With the Gov funding it is a chance of getting in.

What I have done is question the veracity of the "doom and gloom" claims made on here. I don't doubt that the worst case scenario could happen. What I doubt is the probability of it happening. There are people on here acting as if NRL players will be injured or killed if they play in Port Moresby. It hasn't happened to the PM's XIII, Kangaroos, Lions, Kiwis and Queensland Cup teams that have been playing in Port Moresby since the 1990s.

To be fair, you have been quite positive about it.

On the probability scale yeah I probably don’t see a player getting killed, however, there are a whole range of issues or challenges that a PNG side faces that are far greater than any side based in Australia or New Zealand would face: social security, mass poverty, lack of infrastructure, endemic corruption, logistical. Now, that doesn’t mean that it won’t succeed and maybe if and when the bid is successful they can prove that these can be overcome but looking from the outside the probability of this succeeding is far less than Perth, NZ 2 (or however many sides therein), Brisbane 3 (or however many sides therein), Melbourne 2 etc etc.

 

[Canard]

To be fair, you have been quite positive about it.

On the probability scale yeah I probably don’t see a player getting killed, however, there are a whole range of issues or challenges that a PNG side faces that are far greater than any side based in Australia or New Zealand would face: social security, mass poverty, lack of infrastructure, endemic corruption, logistical. Now, that doesn’t mean that it won’t succeed and maybe if and when the bid is successful they can prove that these can be overcome but looking from the outside the probability of this succeeding is far less than Perth, NZ 2 (or however many sides therein), Brisbane 3 (or however many sides therein), Melbourne 2 etc etc.

No player being murdered is hardly some big positive.

PNG locals have and will be murdered over Rugby League however.

But that's just far too simplistic a take, it's much more then that

- the logistics of travel
- revenue from sponsorship and TV
- making our sport a literal international political tool

But most importantly who is going to pay for this? Particularly when the govt changes or loses interest.

 

[Iamback]

To be fair, you have been quite positive about it.

On the probability scale yeah I probably don’t see a player getting killed, however, there are a whole range of issues or challenges that a PNG side faces that are far greater than any side based in Australia or New Zealand would face: social security, mass poverty, lack of infrastructure, endemic corruption, logistical. Now, that doesn’t mean that it won’t succeed and maybe if and when the bid is successful they can prove that these can be overcome but looking from the outside the probability of this succeeding is far less than Perth, NZ 2 (or however many sides therein), Brisbane 3 (or however many sides therein), Melbourne 2 etc etc.

Say the game gets to the 20 teams by 2031...As unlikely as it is. Without PNG. When is the next expansion. 2050? I think you go early and put up with 20 years being based here to have the side grow as the country does.

Andrew Hill their CEO is pretty open to how the finished model looks, If it becomes a Pacific side. That with Perth is a pretty good base to grow from and leaves options for the 3rd side to lock up up Brisbane or go somewhere new

 

[Colk]

FMD.

The NSL was a bigger basket case than the A-League. It had more trouble attracting and retaining talent. It didn't stop the Perth Glory from drawing 14,979 to their games in 1997-98.



The NSL was drawing less across the board in 2003-04 than the A-League is drawing in 2023-24. It was the laat season of the NSL. Crowds were down, but Perth Glory drew 9,470 in 03-04, versus 5,305 in 23-24.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003–04_National_Soccer_League

Attendance Statistics :: Totals / Averages (Home Club) :: Ultimate A-League

From the Attendance Statistics section, you access crowd statistics for all A-League Men's competition seasons and matches.

www.ultimatealeague.com

I bet you also twenty years ago, outside of say the Broncos or the Cowboys and maybe the Knights that every league team had s*** crowds. For example average crowds during Super League and ARL and before that even were less on average that what Super Rugby were getting. Probably even less than what the A-League were getting initially. Did you factor in this or does that not help your argument?

The NRL average for 2003 was 14,469. Storm averaged just 9,626 with a team that finished 5th on the ladder.

Rugby League Tables / Attendances 2003

Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables

afltables.com

The first A-League season drew an average 11,628 in 05-06
[/QUOTE]

All that you can prove without a doubt is that soccer crowds were greater than Rugby League in Perth in 97-98. That’s it. The rest is speculation.

In order to determine a probability you have to factor in a whole range of things.

1. What were the total Rugby League attendances from 1995-1997? What are the underlying trends in these years? What factors impacted crowds at individual clubs? What factors impacted crowds in general? Go from this point to 2023. What is the underlying trend? What factors are impacting clubs crowds now versus that in 1995-97?

2. What were the total soccer crowds in 1995-97. What were the underlying trends in those years. Any causes for variances at individual clubs? Again go from this point to 2023. What is the underlying trend? What are some factors impacting crowds now

3. After using this data draw on some probabilities. For example is it more probable or less probable that a Rugby League would draw more than a soccer club? Does it have a greater chance or not?

 

[Wb1234]

To be fair, you have been quite positive about it.

On the probability scale yeah I probably don’t see a player getting killed, however, there are a whole range of issues or challenges that a PNG side faces that are far greater than any side based in Australia or New Zealand would face: social security, mass poverty, lack of infrastructure, endemic corruption, logistical. Now, that doesn’t mean that it won’t succeed and maybe if and when the bid is successful they can prove that these can be overcome but looking from the outside the probability of this succeeding is far less than Perth, NZ 2 (or however many sides therein), Brisbane 3 (or however many sides therein), Melbourne 2 etc etc.

And all of those issues have been addressed by being based in cairns and getting 60 million pa from the govt

 

[Iamback]

And all of those issues have been addressed by being based in cairns and getting 60 million pa from the govt

The wealth of Santos, Coke being in PNG helps

They will sell a few home games too, No location that comes in will fail due to money. Lack of talent is only concern

 

[Wb1234]

The wealth of Santos, Coke being in PNG helps

They will sell a few home games too, No location that comes in will fail due to money. Lack of talent is only concern

Talent is their biggest selling point

no other nrl team will be able to match them for juniors once the nrl club is established and the junior pathways have been running for a decade

 

[Canard]

The wealth of Santos, Coke being in PNG helps

They will sell a few home games too, No location that comes in will fail due to money. Lack of talent is only concern

PNG makes no money, like zero in comparison to any AU/NZ club.

 

[Canard]

Talent is their biggest selling point

no other nrl team will be able to match them for juniors once the nrl club is established and the junior pathways have been running for a decade

Why have they produced so little to date?