2023 Origin III - Wed 12 Jul - NSW 24-10 QLD @ Accor

[Someone2]

Gutherson to come on and score the match winner

 

[Woody90]

What's Gutho going to do off the bench, other than have a great seat to watch the game. Which he can't even leave at half time if the game turns out to be crap. Which it probably will be.
He can't even refund his ticket.

Prefer Gutho playing on Saturday if I'm being honest. Moses too for that matter.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he sits on the bench for 75 minutes…because Freddy…

 

[dannyt]

it feels like we are up 2-0 or at worse 0-0 with the first 2 games being voided

Game 3- winner takes all?

 

[mxlegend99]

Gutherson to come on and score the match winner

As if NSW will be close to Queensland for that to be a possibility.

 

[Iamback]

I’d much rather put my money on a team with players who know what it’s like to be playing in a side that might be losing the forward battle and momentum against them but they can still produce something when their side is struggling.

Despite playing in the last two grand finals most of the Penrith players looked like absolute deer-caught in the headlights in game 1 and had no answers.

I’m definitely not saying Id predominately pick players from struggling clubs, but I wouldn’t pick players just because they play for a top team either. We need to pick them based on their skills and whether they have the right ones for Origin which we don’t do. QLD have always gotten that right.

Did they though?

To'o's numbers matched a club game.
Martin was a beast
Crichton scored.
Luai had both try assists, He was also the only player to have a line break assist.

NSW had 3 linebreaks in that game.
To'o
Crichton
Martin.

The right side was bad hence the loss. Even still Teddy and Frizzell held up. Frizzell's was 50/50
Another chance Teddy bombed by hogging.

So there was enough chances created just poor finishing.

What we do well at club level is big outside backs bringing it back
Quick play the balls
Effort areas line speed, Kick chase etc.

Which is what NSW has struggled at particularly in Game 2. Too many decent kicks let down by poor kick chase.

Particularly under Freddy. If NSW win they win big, QLD pick sides that are better at grinding out wins. Which goes with picking guys who are the flavour of the week over proven performers

 

[Iamback]

Lets look at this series as a whole.

Game 1

Picks Hynes on the bench with no plan for him
Picks a Bulldogs prop in TPJ never seen again.
plays NSW best forwards in Martin and Murray on the bench

Game 2

Decides 2 hookers are needed instead of a Utility. Yet plays that hooker at centre
picks a Tigers prop - plays him for 12 mins because he can't keep up
Once again Martin and Murray on the bench.

Now decides that a centre and Hooker are both needed on the bench.

A centre is needed instead of going back to the previously blooded Staggs or going to Pensini who is on the way up coming off the GF.

Goes to the side who is in the bottom 4, To a player that last month was being shopped around.

That goes with Gutho at centre in 2020
Talakai selection last year

Amongst other puzzling decisions, lack of a plan is the issue not selecting guys from successful teams

 

[Apey]

The same Willie Tonga that won a comp with the Dogs in 2004?

Thurston who played in the same side or was a GF player in 2005?

Matt Scott was in that Cows 2005 side.

Dogs made the GF in 2009. Hannant was picked from that.

So none were picked only based on their performances in shit teams?

Talk about reaching and changing the goalposts.

Tonga - picked in Game 2 2004 then not again until 2009, 2010, 2011 where Cowboys finished 12th, 15th & 7th.

Thurston - was halfback for entire 2005 series, yes the Cowboys were going good. Also helps being a generational talent.

Matt Scott - didn't debut for QLD until 2010 where Cowboys finished 15th.

Hannant - played the whole 2008 series off the bench. Played 2008 - 2012 off the bench for them.

Back to your original point - QLD didn't just win their 8 in a row because they picked good players from good teams. It was the opposite if anything, they picked good players *regardless* of their team. That and they had 4 - 5 Immortals in their spine over the years, that always helps.

 

[Iamback]

Talk about reaching and changing the goalposts.

Tonga - picked in Game 2 2004 then not again until 2009, 2010, 2011 where Cowboys finished 12th, 15th & 7th.

Thurston - was halfback for entire 2005 series, yes the Cowboys were going good. Also helps being a generational talent.

Matt Scott - didn't debut for QLD until 2010 where Cowboys finished 15th.

Hannant - played the whole 2008 series off the bench. Played 2008 - 2012 off the bench for them.

Back to your original point - QLD didn't just win their 8 in a row because they picked good players from good teams. It was the opposite if anything, they picked good players *regardless* of their team. That and they had 4 - 5 Immortals in their spine over the years, that always helps.

No my point is how many of these 'project' players do NSW use. Often from shit teams who come in, struggle and are shown the door?
Compare that to QLD. None of those guys you listed were just plucked from struggling sides. They had decent careers before getting the jersey. The opposite to how NSW do it

Lets look at this team picked. How many of the 17 do you realistically see in the side come 2025?

Their seems to no planning and jersey's are just given out like tic tacs. Freddy is too influenced by the media and this side is further proof

 

[Chins get the wins]

Did they though?

To'o's numbers matched a club game.
Martin was a beast
Crichton scored.
Luai had both try assists, He was also the only player to have a line break assist.

NSW had 3 linebreaks in that game.
To'o
Crichton
Martin.

The right side was bad hence the loss. Even still Teddy and Frizzell held up. Frizzell's was 50/50
Another chance Teddy bombed by hogging.

So there was enough chances created just poor finishing.

What we do well at club level is big outside backs bringing it back
Quick play the balls
Effort areas line speed, Kick chase etc.

Which is what NSW has struggled at particularly in Game 2. Too many decent kicks let down by poor kick chase.

Particularly under Freddy. If NSW win they win big, QLD pick sides that are better at grinding out wins. Which goes with picking guys who are the flavour of the week over proven performers

Don't waste your time any loss is Penriths fault. The only one in the last few years that actually was was game 1 this year. Nathan didn't put that game away and that was on him.

 

[jason taylor]

The same Willie Tonga that won a comp with the Dogs in 2004?

Thurston who played in the same side or was a GF player in 2005?

Matt Scott was in that Cows 2005 side.

Dogs made the GF in 2009. Hannant was picked from that.

So none were picked only based on their performances in shit teams?

Wait - so because Willie Tonga was in a GF winning team six years before, you think he’s a form player in the competition and deserves origin selection?

You’ve completely moved the goalposts of your own argument. First you stated that Queensland picked players exclusively on the current form of your team, now you’re arguing that as long as their team has previously been good/they’ve won a GF they deserved to be picked?

What about Dane Gagai who up until this year was being picked despite his best club days being long past him? Kalyn Ponga being picked from a Knights team that has severely underperformed in recent years? Andrew McCullough being picked in 2021?

 

[6 more kfc buckets]

Wouldn't suprise me if Slater let NSW win this one convincingly so Freddy gets an extension.

 

[Clarkent]

It's funny how some in here are blaming the panthers players for the nsw demise. But you take those players out of the team and you end up with a more rubbish team.
I'm glad they dropped Luai so they can blame someone else. He was never the problem in the first place. Fittler picking young on the left edge was shocker. He should've picked Olaku'atu because his style suited Luai's game. He plays similar to Kikau. Walker has no footwork and he'll struggle again against qld.

Luai missing out is a huge win for the Panthers

 

[Iamback]

Wait - so because Willie Tonga was in a GF winning team six years before, you think he’s a form player in the competition and deserves origin selection?

You’ve completely moved the goalposts of your own argument. First you stated that Queensland picked players exclusively on the current form of your team, now you’re arguing that as long as their team has previously been good/they’ve won a GF they deserved to be picked?

What about Dane Gagai who up until this year was being picked despite his best club days being long past him? Kalyn Ponga being picked from a Knights team that has severely underperformed in recent years? Andrew McCullough being picked in 2021?

Gagai played in GF in 2021. He was in successful Souths teams for a few years before that. It wasn't like they just went to Newcastle and plucked a centre out.

McCulloch wasn't a regular and less players to pick from.

This is dead rubber, It should either be giving the current guys a last game or building for future seasons. A few selections do neither

 

[Iamback]

Don't waste your time any loss is Penriths fault. The only one in the last few years that actually was was game 1 this year. Nathan didn't put that game away and that was on him.

You know I don't rate Cleary as high as you but it was others too.

The fact people can watch the lack of linespeed and poor kick chase in Game 2 and say. They played a Penrith style... Shows how little people know about footy

Even allowing for that. NSW had the record win last year with the same amount of Penrith players

And won in 2021. With the same guys just a fit Murray, Latrell and Tommy with them

 

[Woody90]

It's funny how some in here are blaming the panthers players for the nsw demise. But you take those players out of the team and you end up with a more rubbish team.
I'm glad they dropped Luai so they can blame someone else. He was never the problem in the first place. Fittler picking young on the left edge was shocker. He should've picked Olaku'atu because his style suited Luai's game. He plays similar to Kikau. Walker has no footwork and he'll struggle again against qld.

Luai missing out is a huge win for the Panthers

Im not blaming the Panthers players. I’m blaming Freddy and the NSW selectors for picking a whole team of Panthers players just because they play for a club side doing well even if individually they don’t have the right skill sets for Origin. It’s complete laziness and goes completely against what QLD has proven to be successful (pick players who’s games compliment Origin rather than the club they play for).

 

[Clarkent]

Im not blaming the Panthers players. I’m blaming Freddy and the NSW selectors for picking a whole team of Panthers players just because they play for a club side doing well even if individually they don’t have the right skill sets for Origin. It’s complete laziness and goes completely against what QLD has proven to be successful (pick players who’s games compliment Origin rather than the club they play for).

Name one Panthers player that didn't deserve to be picked?

 

[Woody90]

Name one Panthers player that didn't deserve to be picked?

After game 1? Both halves.

 

[Clarkent]

After game 1? Both halves.

If Cleary wasn't injured you would've dropped both? Who would you have replaced them with?

 

[84 Baby]

Talk about reaching and changing the goalposts.

Tonga - picked in Game 2 2004 then not again until 2009, 2010, 2011 where Cowboys finished 12th, 15th & 7th.

Thurston - was halfback for entire 2005 series, yes the Cowboys were going good. Also helps being a generational talent.

Matt Scott - didn't debut for QLD until 2010 where Cowboys finished 15th.

Hannant - played the whole 2008 series off the bench. Played 2008 - 2012 off the bench for them.

Back to your original point - QLD didn't just win their 8 in a row because they picked good players from good teams. It was the opposite if anything, they picked good players *regardless* of their team. That and they had 4 - 5 Immortals in their spine over the years, that always helps.

They were good, and to a degree Queensland always have, because unless your name is Lockyer, Thurston, Smith or Cronk, etc, then you know your damn role isn’t to make a decision about anything, your role is just to put in effort with kick chase, support runs, defence, etc.
Whereas NSW have Tedesco/Yeo fighting over who’s first receiver and Liam Martin the only player putting in a semblance of effort.

 

[Woody90]

If Cleary wasn't injured you would've dropped both? Who would you have replaced them with?

Yes. Would have replaced them with Walker and either Hynes or Reynolds.

FTR I wouldn’t pick Walker now for a dead rubber at his age, but I think he would have been a lot better in game 1 when we had all of that position but the halves couldn’t do anything with it because the halves were struggling to read what was in front of them and play out of the Penrith structure. Don’t get me wrong, I think Cleary is a fantastic player, but his skills suit a structure rather than the off the cuff style that suits Origin.