Andrew Johns vs Darren Lockyer

[Johns Magic]

Thurston's game this year has been up there

 

[DecoyRunner]

Just something to stir the debate a little:

What would everyone's opinion of Thurston be should he take North Queensland to a premiership? Would it be possible that he may surpass all of them?

Time is still on his side for this to occur.

Thurston is way better than Lockyer and deserves to be up there with Johns imo. I'm predicting a Dally M and Golden Boot for him this year (risk-taker, I know), and at least one more (probably two) Dally Ms before he's done in his career.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Just something to stir the debate a little:

What would everyone's opinion of Thurston be should he take North Queensland to a premiership? Would it be possible that he may surpass all of them?

Time is still on his side for this to occur.

For the past 2 years I have been stirring that debate...

Looks like now I'm not the only one thinking it, however.

 

[Desert Qlder]

Thurston is way better than Lockyer and deserves to be up there with Johns imo. I'm predicting a Dally M and Golden Boot for him this year (risk-taker, I know), and at least one more (probably two) Dally Ms before he's done in his career.

That would be very impressive but without a premiership it's pretty meaningless. I'm not counting Canterbury 04 in these calculations.

It's very early days to be making predictions, but Thurston may now be surrounded by a group of players that could help him achieve that goal. Particularly so Matt Scott is reaching his levels of play and the unfathomable potential of Tariq Sims.

These are the only reasons I'm presenting this for debate.

 

[ANTiLAG]

I really think you place far too much weight on premierships to assess a player. Wayne Pearce, Siro and Roach not great because they did not win a premiership? Andrew Gee won several. Paul Whatuira won at least 2 and he was pies. Still is. Wally Lewis did not win a NSWRL. Should that detract from him?

Craig Gower won a premiership. I think he may have been an origin winning half, but you would not dare mention him in the same breath as JT.

I think you can assess Aus greatness on origins every bit as much as premierships. Some years, there are 4 grand finals intensity games played for mine.

 

[Desert Qlder]

Antilag, it would be wise to ask the players themselves just how they regard personal accolades compared to premiership rings. To be frank, the players you've mentioned will never feature in these discussions because they will forever be known as very good players. What we are discussing here is true greatness.

Of this there is really only a handful of players who may possess this quality per decade.

I'm not discounting Thurston's supreme achievements in the Origin arena, handsomely trounces anything Johns has to offer for certain. What I'm saying is that with a premiership his record would then be without question.

Thurston has a competitive streak the likes of which I've never seen. His competitors attest to this fact. It is that mindset which drives him more than anything and has made him possibly the best player of his era.

I'd love to see a player like that lead a side to a premiership.

 

[Phil McGrawhan]

Antilag, it would be wise to ask the players themselves just how they regard personal accolades compared to premiership rings. To be frank, the players you've mentioned will never feature in these discussions because they will forever be known as very good players. What we are discussing here is true greatness.

Of this there is really only a handful of players who may possess this quality per decade.

I'm not discounting Thurston's supreme achievements in the Origin arena, handsomely trounces anything Johns has to offer for certain. What I'm saying is that with a premiership his record would then be without question.

Thurston has a competitive streak the likes of which I've never seen. His competitors attest to this fact. It is that mindset which drives him more than anything and has made him possibly the best player of his era.

I'd love to see a player like that lead a side to a premiership.

He has won one with the dogs...& if IRC he gave his premiership ring to Steve Price who was out injured.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Are you suggesting Wayne Pearce and Wally lewis do not come up in great player suggestions? They do.

As for the Thurston origin achievements trouncing Joey's. We agree. And one by one, more and more will agree.

I am often accussed as having a "man crush" on JT by users of this forum. I reallllly rate him. I am sure he'd like to lead the cows to a maiden premiership, but if he doesn't, I already rate hima better player than Sticky, Langer, and probably Joey...

I think you can be a great w/o a premiership in a day of origin and true test football. Prince has a premiership at half, JT does not, JT > Prince.



We agree on everything else.

 

[Desert Qlder]

On the subject of premierships, Wally Lewis led his club Wynnum Manly to two premierships in 1984 and 86. He's ticked that box. Of course, on this forum it would be impossible to get any respect for that (not that I'd care).

As to Wayne Pearce, no I do not regard him as a truly great player.

 

[Johns Magic]

Thurston has a competitive streak the likes of which I've never seen.

Now I am a big JT fan.

But Johns cops it from all for being a bad sport when he threw his mouthguard, didn't accept the point-scoring award after a loss, called a ref a merkin, etc. Bad sport or not, how it doesn't show an insane competitive streak, I don't know.

You say you'd love to see a player like that lead a side to a premiership...Johns did.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Haha. Big Pete is in your corner, personally I share the LU majority and have little recognition of Brisbane Cup.

And Wayne Pearce was a great player, John Chicka's try should not begrudge him that recognition, and that is the giant hole in your premiership theory of greatness.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Now I am a big JT fan.

But Johns cops it from all for being a bad sport when he threw his mouthguard, didn't accept the point-scoring award after a loss, called a ref a merkin, etc. Bad sport or not, how it doesn't show an insane competitive streak, I don't know.

You say you'd love to see a player like that lead a side to a premiership...Johns did.

I think it ultimately came down to jealousy and tall poppy syndrome. Like I stated, I never supproted a single team JT played for. He was awesome. I couldn't give two hoots about him taking MDMA. I did not like his racist outburst. Still an awesome player. So he yelled at the team and acted like a trained seal when things went badly, still an awesome player. If the coach did not want him to yell at the team he would have givent eh leadership to a "cuddler" and not a "yeller".

Joey was an awesome player, in the literal sense, not the overused sense. JT is too.

 

[Desert Qlder]

Haha. Big Pete is in your corner, personally I share the LU majority and have little recognition of Brisbane Cup.

And Wayne Pearce was a great player, John Chicka's try should not begrudge him that recognition, and that is the giant hole in your premiership theory of greatness.

Fortunately I'm privy to the thoughts of far stronger football minds than those found on LU in regard to that matter, hence my dismissal of that opinion.

 

[Desert Qlder]

Now I am a big JT fan.

But Johns cops it from all for being a bad sport when he threw his mouthguard, didn't accept the point-scoring award after a loss, called a ref a merkin, etc. Bad sport or not, how it doesn't show an insane competitive streak, I don't know.

You say you'd love to see a player like that lead a side to a premiership...Johns did.

Andrew Johns is a truly great player.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Lets think abotu this Desert. The NSWRL lets two clubs in from Queensland in 1988. One stacked with all star talent from BRL and from NSWRL clubs: the Broncs. 1991 they do not even go post season. The Broncs do not find their feet until 1992 when they claim their first premiership and start a decade of domination. The other team, the Gold Coast Seagulls battled Souths for the spoon annually.

Also, before Origin, NSW residents spanked Qld residents almost annually. lol@souffs.

Then, even during Brisbane's domination, the Qld SOO team was getting spanked.

There was not the talent nor the compteitiveness in BRL that there was in NSWRL.

Also; its a dead issue and you're fighting the tide defending BRL compared to NSWRL as LU users know, but deal with the other point...

Why should Wayne Pearce not be great because of Chicka's try?

 

[Stormerz]

You my friend have no Idea. People always say this, but If you trot out Buderus 2001-2006 against Cam smith 2006-2011 and you have a mighty good comparison of top players. Not saying Buderus is better, but the gap between he and Smith is a lot closer then the Gap between Johns and Locker in terms of playing ability. Only thing Smith exceeds Buderus in by a country mile is a kicking game. Running wise, defensive wise, inspiration wise, toughness wise, vision wise there is little between them.

To be fair when you compare great players, there'll never be THAT much between them. If you add a whole new kicking dimension then the difference is pretty great.

 

[Desert Qlder]

It's not because he hasn't a premiership that I do not consider Pearce a true great. It's because I simply do not hold him in the same regard as other players, on ability alone.

Bradley Clyde on the other hand.

As for your other points, I'm just not interested.

 

[DecoyRunner]

Lets think abotu this Desert. The NSWRL lets two clubs in from Queensland in 1988. One stacked with all star talent from BRL and from NSWRL clubs: the Broncs. 1991 they do not even go post season. The Broncs do not find their feet until 1992 when they claim their first premiership and start a decade of domination. The other team, the Gold Coast Seagulls battled Souths for the spoon annually.

Also, before Origin, NSW residents spanked Qld residents almost annually. lol@souffs.

Then, even during Brisbane's domination, the Qld SOO team was getting spanked.

There was not the talent nor the compteitiveness in BRL that there was in NSWRL.

Also; its a dead issue and you're fighting the tide defending BRL compared to NSWRL as LU users know, but deal with the other point...

Why should Wayne Pearce not be great because of Chicka's try?

You leave out the Broncos debut in which they drew the reigning premiers (cheers for that, NSWRL). Brisbane gashed them 44-10. Then injuries to the likes of Miles, Backo, Lewis and others brought them down in a big way.

It's the same now as it's always been. QLD produce outstanding RL players regularly, but not a large number of "quite good" players. You saw the scramble when Inglis, Tonga and Tate were all out. Even losing Israel had us blooding Yow Yeh too early.

There's no real depth, whereas NSW produce brilliant players AND quite good players in large amounts. There's something like three times the number of juniors playing league in NSW than in QLD.

Back on topic, Kevin Walters has six rings. He's not within a million miles of Thurston's league.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Back on topic, Kevin Walters has six rings. He's not within a million miles of Thurston's league.

Agreed.

I also left out the Lazarus effect on the Broncs

 

[DecoyRunner]

Agreed.

I also left out the Lazarus effect on the Broncs

Some of the hardest men to ever exist have played our game, but only one is called The Brick With Eyes.