Central Coast Bears NRL Bid.

[Beowulf]

dots on a map? Suggesting a NSW map needs more dots as people aren't already following NRL unless there is an NRL team in their suburb is laughable.

If I lived in a place where i have a number of NRL teams I could follow within an 60-90min drive from me, where I was getting 5-8 NRL games a year in my town, where there was plenty of jnr clubs I could choose to sign my kids up to and where the media/TV was RL biased, I would say I had no excuse not to be a NRL fan.

Without knowing the ins and outs of each bid's business strategy you have no idea which are or are not long term viable.

I said "Regardless of some of the virtues of other bids, many/all will not be as viable as the CC bid long term." Sustainability is one of the Bears strong suits.

The CC gets 3-4 NRL games per year.

The whole sorry history of the Bears/Central Coast saga explains exactly why so many refuse to be NRL fans....why regos are going down ( I've talked to a CC junior club President who advises its seniors as well as junior numbers going down), why Fox and FTA TV viewing patterns are substandard. If a region and fan base get treated with such utter contempt, why on earth should the game expect any loyalty from the disaffected? I certainly dont watch NRL on principle but will do so the second the Bears are granted a license.

 

[Clarke]

The priorities for NRL expansion are,

1. Another Brisbane team, but will not happen until the agreement with the
Broncos runs out.
2. Perth, this is a no brainer due to the time difference.
3. Cental Queensland, or a team out of Wellington NZ.
5. Adelaide, was tried before and will prove to be successful given time.
6. Central Coast or PNG, problem with the CC is that it will be perceived as
another Sydney team in what needs to be a national competition and probably too close to Newcastle and Manly to grab the corporate dollar.

Are these the priorities for NRL expansion as you stated they are or is this your opinion?

If this is as Statement can you please reveal your source(s)

 

[hillbillyjazzer1954]

I think it was around $5-6m, every cent the Bears had. $5-6m more than any other club trying to bludge off our work. The others stakeholders in pure dollar terms, more obviously. The council and Government were not going to build the stadium except the Bears got an express guarantee that would have the license for ever (no qualifications). The Bears pushed the council and Govt based on this guarantee, and renamed themselves....a relocation and name change that had been envisaged in the late 80's and attempted in 1991. You cannot deny that without the efforts of the Bears Bluetongue would not be there and they have an intrinsic right to call it their stadium. The Bears still own a % of playing rights - they, the next Federal Treasurer and the current Premier of NSW will ensure no parasitic team will be relocating there.

by the sounds of this report,

http://www.gosford.nsw.gov.au/customer/document_gallery/pom/pom_grahame_park.pdf

the bears only put in 3 million out of 24 million, and the Council was the Driving force behind the re development of the park, not the bears

 

[BuffaloRules]

I would be I interested to see Beowulf and Red & Black Bears responses to the well thought out post of The Mad Hatter.

 

[Perth Red]

by the sounds of this report,

http://www.gosford.nsw.gov.au/customer/document_gallery/pom/pom_grahame_park.pdf

the bears only put in 3 million out of 24 million, and the Council was the Driving force behind the re development of the park, not the bears

I guess that puts that one to bed!

 

[Perth Red]

I said "Regardless of some of the virtues of other bids, many/all will not be as viable as the CC bid long term." Sustainability is one of the Bears strong suits.

.

and how do you know this? Are you privvy to the other bids business models, partnerships, potential membership modelling, stadium deals? You sound like you must be to make such a statement so please share, I'd love to be able to compare them.

 

[Red&BlackBear]

I guess that puts that one to bed!

$3 million into the stadium. How much did any current side that uses it put in? How much has WARL or Pirates put in to NiB? It's all good to poke a finger and have a laugh when your own sides have done SFA. I guess that puts it to bed right?

 

[BuffaloRules]

The issue is that you blokes make sh!t up!!!

It wasn't $5-6 mil as your mate claimed.

You never once provide a source to back up any of your biased opinions.

 

[The Great Dane]

$3 million into the stadium. How much did any current side that uses it put in? How much has WARL or Pirates put in to NiB? It's all good to poke a finger and have a laugh when your own sides have done SFA. I guess that puts it to bed right?

I'm not trying to come off rude, but just because the Bears put $3 million into a stadium is not a reason to let them into the competition again!

The Bears playing a part in the construction of Bluetongue was a good business decision made in a bad climate.
The Bears took a risk that if it payed off it would have put them in a great position, but it didn't pay off and some could argue that if the Bears did not take that risk they could still be around today, but that is neither here nor there.

The Bears and their supporters (myself included) need to wake up to themselves and realise that the Central Coast is a dead end for the Bears, if the Bears want to give themselves every opportunity of getting back into the NRL then they need to relocate to somewhere where ARLC wants a team and at the moment that is not in NSW.

I realise that for many fans this is very sad but it is what it is, either we go where there is opportunity or we slowly wither and die were we are, we have to adapt to survive.

 

[Red&BlackBear]

The issue is that you blokes make sh!t up!!!

It wasn't $5-6 mil as your mate claimed.

You never once provide a source to back up any of your biased opinions.

Taking into account money for lobbying and $5mil-$6mil isn't far off the mark. At the end of the day it's still went towards it, $3m went to builders and construction companies. Lawyer and developer fee's also needed to be paid.

I don't have to provide a source anyway, old mate was asking for it and he had it all along. I've been here long enough to know hillbilly is a fcken shit stirrer and I've also been here long enough that there's 2 other threads on the CCBears filled with info. If people want to know things that have no relevance to their lives then use the bloody search button

I'm not anyones secretary here, I've been providing information on the bid for 5 years now. I'll be happy to provide any new stuff but I'm not going to waste my time going around in circles with obvious trolls. Put simply, if someone asks a question 9x's out of 10 the answer will already be in one of the 2 previous CCBears threads.

 

[bobmar28]

And on another note, the Red & Black horizontal stripes ( as stolen by West Sydney Wanderers) does make a great jersey...

Looks great on a soccer jersey. The V looks better on an NRL jersey.

 

[bobmar28]

That may be te perception of some but is easily countered.
1. The CC Bears already have corporates locked in once a license is granted - none of whom conflict with other teams as these sponsors are being arranged through executives/organisations who will only support a Bears NRL team. This will be presented to the NRL when bids are submitted.
2. The Central Coast is not Sydney or Newcastle - the poor access to NRL grounds from northern Sydney/Central Coast precludes regular attendances at grounds and prevents to code from growing to its potential.
3. Regardless of some of the virtues of other bids, many/all will not be as viable as the CC bid long term.

Dots on a map are lovely, but low cost/risk and sustainability will be key criteria. A balanced approach may be to add one high risk/return bid with one hearland low risk bid to diversify risk/benefit....hence WA or CQLD with the Bears is one viable scenario. Can't see them going WA & CQLD together due risk factors. Or they may shore up hearland first and go SEQ & Bears...who knows??? We've been debating this for years and are no closer.

I would like them to announce 2 as succesful bidders, with 2 to follow a few years later. Whatever combo of CC,WA,QLD (SEQ &/or CQLD), NZ2. Letting these long run bids die will make it harder to ever regenerate in future.

You talk a lot about heartland. QLD is rugby league heartland yet they have only 3 teams to NSW 10. It is time for QLD to have a fourth team, along with one expansion ... WA Pirates.

 

[BuffaloRules]

Taking into account money for lobbying and $5mil-$6mil isn't far off the mark. At the end of the day it's still went towards it, $3m went to builders and construction companies. Lawyer and developer fee's also needed to be paid.

Link?

Architect and legal fees form part of any building project. There is nothing to suggest that a further payment was made by the club to pay for these, and if they are a minority contributor, why would they?

 

[Beowulf]

I guess that puts that one to bed!

Hardly. The report was written in Dec 08 indicating the planned budget. The stadium was anticipated to be completed by May 1999. Unfortunately, it rained for 3 months almost contiunually and there was a problem with the roof. Then Abigroup got pulled off the project to complete Olympics works. The costs blew out for all parties. As a result, the Bears had no cash flow by end of 1999 due to having to play away every weekend, which gave the League the excuse (in their opinion) to reneg on all their guarantees.

I will concede that the council and State Govt was/is as keen on the Bears relocation as the Bears were/are.

 

[Beowulf]

You talk a lot about heartland. QLD is rugby league heartland yet they have only 3 teams to NSW 10. It is time for QLD to have a fourth team, along with one expansion ... WA Pirates.

If they can prove they are more sustainable than the Bears, possibly. Unfortunately, the track record would indicate otherwise.

 

[Beowulf]

I am sorry you feel that way.

A lot of things about the CC Bears I find interesting.

If you live on the CC and express a valid opinion that you'd like you're own NRL team, and not the Bears, you are vilified by people who probably don't live on the CC and are clinging to the memories of a 15 year dead team in the top flight.

If you're a CC person and you go to Gosford Stadium, you're continually reminded that it's actually 'the Bears stadium' though they appear to have a very slim chance of ever actually playing in it. Ever.

That CC juniors would never, ever find a pathway to the NRL without all the hard work of the Bears on the CC. And that there is so much CC talent, the Bears are being perennially overlooked for a NRL team.

That unlucky circumstances and finances somehow cruelled the Bears. The same could be said for St George, arguably one of the GREATEST RL clubs EVER who had to merge with Illawarra to survive. If Illawarra, which I see almost the same as CC, couldn't survive on their own, how does CC expect to on its own? And Norths won 2 comps and hadn't won one for nearly 80 years.

The same unlucky circumstances and financial plights could be said for the Magpies and Tigers, both great clubs but time was called on them both in the top flight. Or Newtown for that matter. They relocated to Campbelltown and were culled. The same misty eyed sentiments are expressed for the Jets but we all know they are never coming back and have maintained their presence in the NSW Cup.

And Norths could have stood and fought. Souths did. They got back in...wrongly or rightly, but they did fight. They could have made a fist of the merger - Tigers and Dragons have. Both won comps.

And the merger with Manly? Geez, the day it was announced EVERYONE knew that it was the worst thing ever. But that said, Manly got the licence and rebuilt their club in to a Premiership force. I didn't see them bleating woe be me during the lean 2003-2005/6 years. They copped on the chin and rebuilt. Sure, I believe that CC should have retained the NRL licence, but who was going to take it on? What consortium would have paid for a NRL franchise with little to no build up time?

Campbelltown, arguably one of the bigger nurseries for RL players doesn't even have it's own team. Hell, they bloody share one who plays FOUR...yes FOUR games in the area. That means a stadium that the council refurbished for the Wests Tigers has FOUR days a year of NRL. How many games are there at Gosford this year? FOUR! So the CC gets as many games for an area that doesn't have a team as an area that shares a team.

And finally, I reckon plenty of the CC members are just footy fans who feel sorry for Norths and sign up. But will they be there if and when the CC Bears kick off?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see the Bears come back. But at the end of the day, the NRL needs to decide if they want/need a CC team. Then the CC needs to decide if they want/need the Bears. I feel for the Norths fans. But having been both a North Shore and CC resident, the Bears supporters I know moved on. The CC residents want a NRL team and not necessarily the Bears. And many RL fans I socialise/work with believe Perth and a 2nd Brisbane and/or NZ team would be better for RL than the CC.

We agree the CC is unsustainable on its own, same as Illawarra - hence the merger of Bear brand and corporate support which has never been lacking with playing talent on the Coast. St.G-Illawarra is the closest model for what is being attempted. For people who think the Coasts pop of 300000 with few corporates is sufficient to generate $16-17m per year every year...its not. After 15 years we probably get frustrated saying it! Just not good communicators obviously!

Tigers and Newtowns areas demographics changed, like North Sydneys. We've tried to move into our logical heartland, hence the frustration and point of difference with them. I strongly sympathise with Western Suburbs and their moves to Cambelltown. I see many parallels with them and us, in that the partner in a JV who had taken the risk to made the move to a RL centre was overshadowed by a partner with better connections.

As for not fighting, we weren't allowed. That decision was taken from our hands by an administrator appointment. Members of the Board who made that decision against members wishes then appeared on the Manly Board. Draw your own conclusions.

The members and fans wanted to fight, but we had no celebrity rallying figures or a George Piggins. Flo was in England still playing, but high profile fans like Mike Gibson, Mike Munro etc didn't stand up when we needed a leader. But we did march - Rabbitoh fans know thousands of Bears fans marched with them in support as were were denied our chance to do it for ourselves.

Re members, its about a 60/40 split CC and non CC, with a high % of CC being children - a deliberate target to attract kids with no preconceived hangups. In 20 years time after a license grant, there would be no opposition to the Bears on the Coast - adults now will grudging take their kids for a year or two, then the Bears would become their equal fav team etc etc. Same as happens whenever any new team is installed in any comp in any code globally.

The NRL have been irresponsible in not providing clear direction to all bid teams. If they definitely wont admit a team based at Bluetongue, they should tell the Bears and suggest an interstate partner they should merge with or fold. I think we at least deserve direction, given we fulfilled every criteria asked of us by D Gallop to attain a license and have perservered for 13 years.

 

[Beowulf]

The Bears and their supporters (myself included) need to wake up to themselves and realise that the Central Coast is a dead end for the Bears, if the Bears want to give themselves every opportunity of getting back into the NRL then they need to relocate to somewhere where ARLC wants a team and at the moment that is not in NSW.

I realise that for many fans this is very sad but it is what it is, either we go where there is opportunity or we slowly wither and die were we are, we have to adapt to survive.

I would agree with you if there was direction from the ARLC indicating that the CC is a dead end. The bid team are meeting the ARLC soon and no doubt will ask for clarification. While ever they say we're a great chance, no reason to alter the model.

I do agree though that we should have a plan B, as the word of RL admin mean nothing to a Bears fan. Playing devils advocate I agree QLD would make sense given the links in the 80's & 90's with QLD....Bears are involved in both Bombers and Rockhampton bids so perhaps informal chats have taken place should the need arise?

 

[BuffaloRules]

Beowulf- just provide us with a link of where the Bears paid $5-6 million.

Maybe from their annual report (s).

 

[Red&BlackBear]

Beowulf- just provide us with a link of where the Bears paid $5-6 million.

Maybe from their annual report (s).

Why is it so important to you? Just wondering, you've never supported the bid and you wanting to know the in details of such a thing has no relevance other than trolling. Are you an accountant? Or rugby league economist? Are you a property valuer? Maybe you work for Abi group or the council? How do you expect us the get the details short of sending a formal request to see Norths finances from over a decade ago? The $5-6mil was reported by people associated with Norths from that same period.

 

[BuffaloRules]

Looks great on a soccer jersey. The V looks better on an NRL jersey.

I don't agree.

Not every team has or had the V, and a lot of Rugby League teams (big and small) had horizontal striping.

Even teams more associated with a V like the Roosters, Tigers and Wests have had periods where they had horizontal striping.

I think the Souths traditional jersey, and the 60's and 70's Cronulla jersey are two of the all time greats along with the Bears jersey.