Five Gone - Confirmed

[giboz71]

I'm glad you think Millward is smart. Even with Graham, we were still one good prop short. After Thompson left we definitely had the cap but I feel sure we had the cap before that.

Millward seems to get the simple things done and struggles with more complex negotiations. I'm sure the likes of Bennett, Hasler, Maguire and Toovey could have/would have retained Packer and at the same time brought in Graham. The players we did not need in 2018 were Allgood, Kerr and Sele. There would have been plenty of room for Graham who was being subsidised by the Dogs.

Lol, you had me till you threw Hasler into the mix as an example of smart recruitment.

He’s singlehandedly screwed the Dogs for the next 5 years, so much so they have had to let Woods, the Morris bros, Mbye, Graham, Reynolds, Eastwood etc....the list goes on. And they won’t be able to afford any one of note for another few years even after letting all those guys go!

But, yeh let’s get Hasler to run our recruitment.

 

[getsmarty]

The reference to Leilua is more about opportunity to play NRL than cap space.
The upgrade of Vaughan was a front load move because we had surplus cap.
SOO bonuses are paid in the following year, so did not effect available cap for 2018.

The extensions of Pereira and Latimore were paid for out of the 2018 cap in order to use left over cap prior to Nov 1, 2018.

Which is smart work by Millward.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Allowing Thompson to leave kept Leilua here...you can't have it both ways...Leilua was as good as gone to Canberra...you are over simplifying a complex situation...

eg..this year guys like JDB/T.Sims/Vaughan would more than likely have had clauses in their contracts allowing for upgrades due to Rep footy...this means we need to juggle the Roster...

BTW..the Leilua contract was not a "Simple " Thing as you point out...either was getting guys like Hunt here ( Broncos wanted to keep him ) or upgrading Vaughan etc...give credit where it is due...

You are totally wrong about Packer...How did he go this year ??? was he worth the extra 200K or so that the tigers paid ?

Again not as simple as people make out...remember we have one of the lowest Third party in the NRL...are you going to blame Millward for that also ??? I'll leave it at that...

Letting Packer go was the right choice. He had reach his ceiling and injuries were starting to impact him, especially at his weight range where his recovery time was getting longer. Another point in the discussion was that the Tigers offered an extra year, which we weren't prepared to. Given the year Packer had, it was the correct decision.

We the fans keep saying we need another prop, but that's not Millwards job, that's the coaching staffs job to identify that as a weakness in our squad. They obviously don't consider it to be so.

K. Sims comes in for LAM, whilst I'm not convinced this is a good choice, there would have been a few behind the scenes negotiations especially involving Tariq. Kerr is still seen as the next to step up, though I highly doubt that, but again that's a coaching decision not a recruitment decision.
There were some talks that involved young Lomax's upgraded contract that included his brother Hayden as well.

As you say its too simple to say this and that about who we recruit and who we keep. There's a myriad of other factors that come into it, one of which is who wants to come to be coached by McGregor and the muppet team of coaches.

 

[getsmarty]

Letting Packer go was the right choice. He had reach his ceiling and injuries were starting to impact him, especially at his weight range where his recovery time was getting longer. Another point in the discussion was that the Tigers offered an extra year, which we weren't prepared to. Given the year Packer had, it was the correct decision.

We the fans keep saying we need another prop, but that's not Millwards job, that's the coaching staffs job to identify that as a weakness in our squad. They obviously don't consider it to be so.

K. Sims comes in for LAM, whilst I'm not convinced this is a good choice, there would have been a few behind the scenes negotiations especially involving Tariq. Kerr is still seen as the next to step up, though I highly doubt that, but again that's a coaching decision not a recruitment decision.
There were some talks that involved young Lomax's upgraded contract that included his brother Hayden as well.

As you say its too simple to say this and that about who we recruit and who we keep. There's a myriad of other factors that come into it, one of which is who wants to come to be coached by McGregor and the muppet team of coaches.

Well Said.

 

[possm]

Lol, you had me till you threw Hasler into the mix as an example of smart recruitment.

He’s singlehandedly screwed the Dogs for the next 5 years, so much so they have had to let Woods, the Morris bros, Mbye, Graham, Reynolds, Eastwood etc....the list goes on. And they won’t be able to afford any one of note for another few years even after letting all those guys go!

But, yeh let’s get Hasler to run our recruitment.

Actually, at the Dogs, Hasler was working under a similar structure to what Mary does now. He did indicate the players he preferred to recruit but Castle was always the one to do the deal and so I imagine that one of her bean counters got it so wrong.

 

[BennyV]

Maybe Sele wanted to go?
Maybe he got a better offer st Sharks?
Maybe he could see the he wasn’t going to get a run at Dragons with others ahead of him like Leilua, Lawrie, Host?
Either way, can’t keep ‘em all.
Bagging the clubs recruitment on this when you don’t know the all facts is a bit rich.

Why did he want to go? Why do other clubs see him and higher value and why can we not match that, despite our obvious lack of forward depth? Why did he fee he wasn’t getting the opportunity he deserved?

Likewise Herbert - why, when our back 5 are our obvious weakness and depth in those positions is non-existent, do we not re-sign a talented local junior who appears very ready to fill in first grade (at a minimum).

All these excuses people make are just evidence of more cultural issues within the club. Don’t see ambitious clubs (the ones that actually chase success) losing promising juniors they wish to keep - they find a way to bring them through to first grade and contribute to success!

 

[ALSGI]

Why did he want to go? Why do other clubs see him and higher value and why can we not match that, despite our obvious lack of forward depth? Why did he fee he wasn’t getting the opportunity he deserved?

Likewise Herbert - why, when our back 5 are our obvious weakness and depth in those positions is non-existent, do we not re-sign a talented local junior who appears very ready to fill in first grade (at a minimum).

All these excuses people make are just evidence of more cultural issues within the club. Don’t see ambitious clubs (the ones that actually chase success) losing promising juniors they wish to keep - they find a way to bring them through to first grade and contribute to success!

Why? I haven’t got a clue.
Would’ve been nice to hold onto Sele and Herbert.
I was pointing out a few possible reasons players leave rather than assuming I know everything on the negotiation table and then put shit on recruitment.
I don’t make excuses, nor do I influence cultural issues within the club but happy for you to peddle the doom, gloom and blame game when you clearly don’t know all the facts.

 

[jak]

We could have and should have kept Packer.

packer had knee problems when he left.

 

[Overseas dragon]

In terms of backs they have Duffty, Perreira, Mann, Aitken, Lafai, Lomax, Nene. I can't see any one better out there available than these 7. That leaves 2 spare as back up. No need for backs. You can even throw in Jai Field but he is a great back up for the halves.

Saints need more forwards depth for the bench.

What if Saints move Hunt to No.9 and Field to 7? McInness was good last season but Hunt would be much better. McInness can be used on the bench.

personnally i think Mcinnes stay, but robson on the bench for end of halfs 10 minutes that might put the cat amongst them .leave hunt where he is surely queenslands reserve half back holds his place ......

 

[Belta]

It’s not doom and gloom but I have recurring nightmares of the past failures. I also fear our fairytale starts may one day dry up. We may soon have to fight under pressure from mid season onwards. To fight your way out you need quality and depth. The top sides barely miss a beat when their stars withdraw. That’s why if we were able to add one or two top tier players, ie TPJ, Oates, Tapau or similar then I’d feel more confident of our teams ability to overcome the strain of a season to end up in a top 4 position and setup for a strong title campaign.

I agree I part with possum in that Packers departure was costly and I predicted it would be. I do suspect balancing the roster is very complicated and know that often there is other underlying issues behind players contract agreements but suspect they undervalued packers importance and felt we had coverage with Lawrie, Host, Sele and Leilua. These mentioned had some short stints early on and were a little underwhelming, especially Leilua. Mary panicked and predominantly played our starting pack injured or not until they completely broke down late in the season. Lawrie and Leilua were again thrust in and this time excelled.

Fast forward to 2019 we lose another power forward in Ah Mau. Okay he’s replaced but again it’s ashame we couldn’t keep both.

PS: I am not sure Packer had such poor year with the Tigers. I distinctly recall watching tigers games this year where Packer was receiving praise from the commentators for him being instrumental providing powerful runs which set up thier attack.

 

[Carlton]

A limiting factor with the squad isnt just the cap, its also the number of players that can be in the squad. If the squad is going to be strengthened with either juniors or established players then some have to be let go to make room.

There are only so many fringe first graders in the 30 and they are the ones that need to be rotated. If a junior has not shown the improvement expected either in first grade, ISP or on the training paddock then they must be moved on.

 

[giboz71]

A limiting factor with the squad isnt just the cap, its also the number of players that can be in the squad. If the squad is going to be strengthened with either juniors or established players then some have to be let go to make room.

There are only so many fringe first graders in the 30 and they are the ones that need to be rotated. If a junior has not shown the improvement expected either in first grade, ISP or on the training paddock then they must be moved on.

Which is exactly what happened to Garrick, Sele and Herbert. All were brought through the junior ranks, but none were able to transition through to FG.

How they go at their new clubs will tell us if we made the right call to let them go.

 

[BLM01]

It’s not doom and gloom but I have recurring nightmares of the past failures. I also fear our fairytale starts may one day dry up. We may soon have to fight under pressure from mid season onwards. To fight your way out you need quality and depth. The top sides barely miss a beat when their stars withdraw. That’s why if we were able to add one or two top tier players, ie TPJ, Oates, Tapau or similar then I’d feel more confident of our teams ability to overcome the strain of a season to end up in a top 4 position and setup for a strong title campaign.

I agree I part with possum in that Packers departure was costly and I predicted it would be. I do suspect balancing the roster is very complicated and know that often there is other underlying issues behind players contract agreements but suspect they undervalued packers importance and felt we had coverage with Lawrie, Host, Sele and Leilua. These mentioned had some short stints early on and were a little underwhelming, especially Leilua. Mary panicked and predominantly played our starting pack injured or not until they completely broke down late in the season. Lawrie and Leilua were again thrust in and this time excelled.

Fast forward to 2019 we lose another power forward in Ah Mau. Okay he’s replaced but again it’s ashame we couldn’t keep both.

PS: I am not sure Packer had such poor year with the Tigers. I distinctly recall watching tigers games this year where Packer was receiving praise from the commentators for him being instrumental providing powerful runs which set up thier attack.

Packer does provide some go forward but is lazy in defence and within his stints on the field the powerful runs go missing especially when they are needed under fatigue. You could also say that Matulino disappointed me for the Tigers as he was considered close to the best forward in the game couple of years ago.
And Packer signed for way overs (reportedly) at around 700K a season which in no uncertain terms should we have tried to match at the expense of upgrading Vaughan, JDB and soon Sims + keeping Frizz and other forwards.
But i do agree we need 1 more established front rower at the right $$$. Unfortunately for me Marty Taupau is over rated at the price he demands and I think he has lost his impact from when Manly signed him from a few years ago. But I think the Bulldogs and Broncos have some young interesting skittle balls in the front row position outside their starting props I would look at.

 

[Belta]

Packer does provide some go forward but is lazy in defence and within his stints on the field the powerful runs go missing especially when they are needed under fatigue. You could also say that Matulino disappointed me for the Tigers as he was considered close to the best forward in the game couple of years ago.
And Packer signed for way overs (reportedly) at around 700K a season which in no uncertain terms should we have tried to match at the expense of upgrading Vaughan, JDB and soon Sims + keeping Frizz and other forwards.
But i do agree we need 1 more established front rower at the right $$$. Unfortunately for me Marty Taupau is over rated at the price he demands and I think he has lost his impact from when Manly signed him from a few years ago. But I think the Bulldogs and Broncos have some young interesting skittle balls in the front row position outside their starting props I would look at.

I have to say that I’ll agree to disagree. IMO Packer, Matulino and Tapau are all high quality props. Anyone of them would strengthen our side.

You rightly point out however their price and I do agree that’s the issue, we can’t pay overs for everyone. I also note what Carlton refers to about the numbers of players to fit into the 30. At the start of the year I was hoping our young forwards would play a bigger role, just maybe a few have turned the corner and are ready in 2019

 

[Frank Facer]

We could have and should have kept Packer.

We definitely should not have matched the Wests offer of 800K a season. I find it hard to believe that Wests offered him that, but I am pretty sure that is what was reported. If not it was at least 700K a year and that is still way to high for Packer. 550K at the max for Packer. I think we should be looking for better than Packer. Now I would be fine with us paying Pangai Junior 800K a year. but ideally I would really want at least 200K of that being paid in 3rd party payments.

As Giboz mentioned, we got Graham for a discounted price and I believe that he is better than Packer for us on the field and off the field. We really do need at least one more good prop, really two, because we will have to be replacing Graham.

I was just thinking how fired up and motivated Graham will be next year. He wants to win a premiership as bad as anyone in the game. He will see next year as possibly his last chance to win a comp.

 

[Frank Facer]

I won't be surprised to see Taupau at Easts next year. I think if he does go there, he will be one of the best props in the game. I think he will look better there surrounded by better players.

I think he would also look very good playing in our team too.

Just imagine if we did get Barrett and he brought Taupau, Tom Turbo and even Walker with him. We would suddenly have one of the top 2 teams in the comp. I don't think it will happen, but it is possible.

 

[BLM01]

I have to say that I’ll agree to disagree. IMO Packer, Matulino and Tapau are all high quality props. Anyone of them would strengthen our side.

You rightly point out however their price and I do agree that’s the issue, we can’t pay overs for everyone. I also note what Carlton refers to about the numbers of players to fit into the 30. At the start of the year I was hoping our young forwards would play a bigger role, just maybe a few have turned the corner and are ready in 2019

I certainly was not saying their not quality props. I judged them on recent performances and I dont rate them as high up as some of the other props out there for impact and they demand top money. Media keep saying it by I dont think J Bromwich is the best prop in the world.

 

[Carlton]

Why did he want to go? Why do other clubs see him and higher value and why can we not match that, despite our obvious lack of forward depth? Why did he fee he wasn’t getting the opportunity he deserved?

Likewise Herbert - why, when our back 5 are our obvious weakness and depth in those positions is non-existent, do we not re-sign a talented local junior who appears very ready to fill in first grade (at a minimum).

All these excuses people make are just evidence of more cultural issues within the club. Don’t see ambitious clubs (the ones that actually chase success) losing promising juniors they wish to keep - they find a way to bring them through to first grade and contribute to success!

Unfortunately, at any point in time, juniors may not have progessed as expected, may not be the player required due to skill set or squad make up or can find a first grade start somewhere else due their squad shortcomings.

You are right we do have shortcomings in our backline and also at prop if, we are signing better quality replacements than the juniors let go, I am all for it. The presumption seems to be that we lose a junior they are talented and we wanted to keep them. There is nothing to indicate that we actually wanted to keep these juniors and its debatable whether they are the type of players that are needed to improve the squad.

 

[BennyV]

Unfortunately, at any point in time, juniors may not have progessed as expected, may not be the player required due to skill set or squad make up or can find a first grade start somewhere else due their squad shortcomings.

You are right we do have shortcomings in our backline and also at prop if, we are signing better quality replacements than the juniors let go, I am all for it. The presumption seems to be that we lose a junior they are talented and we wanted to keep them. There is nothing to indicate that we actually wanted to keep these juniors and its debatable whether they are the type of players that are needed to improve the squad.

I don’t question whether or not we wanted to keep them. I question WHY we didn’t want to keep them. Both Herbert and Sele were very dominant in NSW Cup at a very young age, have been recognised by many decent judges as players with big futures and play in positions that we lack quality depth. So why are we content to lose them, especially when they will likely be replaced with more ‘depth’ signings that lack the upside of potential first grade careers?

For mine, I’d prefer these guys over Perriera and Latimore (who, if we are serious about going for a premiership, should be depth options at best) as there is potential for them to build to quality full time first grader. Time will tell whether that’s the right call.

 

[Carlton]

I don’t question whether or not we wanted to keep them. I question WHY we didn’t want to keep them. Both Herbert and Sele were very dominant in NSW Cup at a very young age, have been recognised by many decent judges as players with big futures and play in positions that we lack quality depth. So why are we content to lose them, especially when they will likely be replaced with more ‘depth’ signings that lack the upside of potential first grade careers?

For mine, I’d prefer these guys over Perriera and Latimore (who, if we are serious about going for a premiership, should be depth options at best) as there is potential for them to build to quality full time first grader. Time will tell whether that’s the right call.

I'm not saying Herbert and Sele aren't good players but they are not vying for the positions Latimore and Pereira are occupying. Sele is a backup lock but we already have Lawrie and Ford looks like he could fill the role soon. Herbert should have been given a run in first grade this year his position is centre or fullback. I dont think he is going to be a star though and we should try to find a real hot shot eg Ponga, Cotrick, Ramien type young player.