General Discussion Thread

[franklin2323]

I grant you the fact we are a dumb footy side, concede to many soft penalties, too many soft tries but we aren't that far away. We just need to sort the issues in our game that hurt us the most.

I think Liam Martin, Corey Waddell, Nick Lui Toso and others have all done there apprenticeships and once they get there opportunity they will take it with both hands. No need to worry on that front.

The plan should be those guys are in the Leota type role when Merrin and Tamou go. Not 1st or 2nd up this year.. We seem to try to fast track guys and skip steps.

 

[Kilkenny]

The plan should be those guys are in the Leota type role when Merrin and Tamou go. Not 1st or 2nd up this year.. We seem to try to fast track guys and skip steps.

Moses Leota, Kaide Ellis, Jack Hethrington of the fringe rowers need bigger minutes to really show what they can deliver.

They are really good kids and I am confident they can do the job if they get more of an opportunity.

While I think both Trent Merrin (first half) & James Tamou had good seasons in 2018 they need to rediscover there better form in 2019 otherwise they are surely surplus to requirements going forward.

 

[Luke Bowden]

How does releasing guys 12 months early solve the 2-3 years issue though?

Not one guy we have re-signed didn't have a deal for 2019. They could of stayed this year while those to take their place further develop or look for cheap bargins as guys get released elsewhere.

Gus admitted he doesn't pay minimum wage. Nor do we get guys who deals are being partially covered by their old clubs. Both those would help the cap going forward

They let them go to retain other players that have deemed more important.

With Peachy and CHN gone, we have cap space to up grade / extend players and prevent them going to “Market”.

We are far better off re-signing say Waqa now, before he goes to the market and we get into. Bidding war. So, CHN goes means we can upgrade Waqa and extend him, with the extra cap space.

 

[Kilkenny]

Mick Leary our former CEO, Head of Football, General Manager what ever you want to call him was in the job for over 10 years as I recall. He was a good man, no doubt, his heart was in the right place but we didn't enjoy any success under his leadership.

Phil Gould took over from Mick Leary with a five year plan to turn us around and he has delivered on his promise. We are a very successful club, four finals appearances in five seasons for the NRL side and the success in other areas cannot be questioned.

The third premiership is proving elusive and not likely to be achieved in the immediate future but given what we have accomplished over the course of our entire history I have enjoyed going to Allianz/ANZ Stadium for finals appearances even if the results haven't gone our way.

 

[Matthew Ellis]

You don't need to release them early either though. Both had deals for 2019 that gives to further develop their replacements

Bulldogs made him an offer and CHN asked for a release, presumably because it was more than we could pay a bench second rower. Personally I don't think we should deny releasing someone who has a family trying to get more money elsewhere.

 

[franklin2323]

They let them go to retain other players that have deemed more important.

With Peachy and CHN gone, we have cap space to up grade / extend players and prevent them going to “Market”.

We are far better off re-signing say Waqa now, before he goes to the market and we get into. Bidding war. So, CHN goes means we can upgrade Waqa and extend him, with the extra cap space.

They were off contract in 2020 though. We still would of had the space to work with even if we let the contract expire

 

[franklin2323]

Bulldogs made him an offer and CHN asked for a release, presumably because it was more than we could pay a bench second rower. Personally I don't think we should deny releasing someone who has a family trying to get more money elsewhere.

The rules prevent anyone talking to a contracted player before Nov. So how did the Dogs make this offer?

 

[franklin2323]

Mick Leary our former CEO, Head of Football, General Manager what ever you want to call him was in the job for over 10 years as I recall. He was a good man, no doubt, his heart was in the right place but we didn't enjoy any success under his leadership.

Phil Gould took over from Mick Leary with a five year plan to turn us around and he has delivered on his promise. We are a very successful club, four finals appearances in five seasons for the NRL side and the success in other areas cannot be questioned.

The third premiership is proving elusive and not likely to be achieved in the immediate future but given what we have accomplished over the course of our entire history I have enjoyed going to Allianz/ANZ Stadium for finals appearances even if the results haven't gone our way.

At what stage do you change the approach? We are wasting Blake's best years here

 

[Pomoz]

At what stage do you change the approach? We are wasting Blake's best years here

Franklin, you offer no explanation of how we do this differently. We don't have the chequebook of the Roosters. The Penrith area is not as a attractive to players as the city or the coast. We don't have a history of sustained success. You keep banging this drum, but you aren't offering an alternative solution.

You think Gus wouldn't mind signing Tapau, Crichton or Tedesco? Where do you think they want to play? In order of preference Roosters, Storm, Broncos, Souths, Manly, Cowboys, Dragons, Cronulla. We are waaaaay down the pecking order. These teams offer either lifestyle, a history of success or big money and prestige. Some offer all of it.

I'm not saying Gus hasn't made mistakes, sure he has, but I can't see what he could have done differently with the roster and cap management. We make the semi's 4 out of 5 year with an inexperienced team and you say he has lost it. I think he has made some clunkers, Griffin and Payne as CEO being the two most obvious, but he knows his footballers. He has signed the best he could get. The "best" just don't want to play for us. We are second tier. One day, I hope we are first tier and beating the Roosters to a signing, but we are a long way off that at the moment.

 

[franklin2323]

Franklin, you offer no explanation of how we do this differently. We don't have the chequebook of the Roosters. The Penrith area is not as a attractive to players as the city or the coast. We don't have a history of sustained success. You keep banging this drum, but you aren't offering an alternative solution.

You think Gus wouldn't mind signing Tapau, Crichton or Tedesco? Where do you think they want to play? In order of preference Roosters, Storm, Broncos, Souths, Manly, Cowboys, Dragons, Cronulla. We are waaaaay down the pecking order. These teams offer either lifestyle, a history of success or big money and prestige. Some offer all of it.

I'm not saying Gus hasn't made mistakes, sure he has, but I can't see what he could have done differently with the roster and cap management. We make the semi's 4 out of 5 year with an inexperienced team and you say he has lost it. I think he has made some clunkers, Griffin and Payne as CEO being the two most obvious, but he knows his footballers. He has signed the best he could get. The "best" just don't want to play for us. We are second tier. One day, I hope we are first tier and beating the Roosters to a signing, but we are a long way off that at the moment.

I have said elsewhere but here goes assuming our Top 13 is the one going forward.

Everyone was good for 2019 contract wise. Keep Peachey and CHN for their last year's. Still having them leave to use the funds in 2020. That with McKendry going gets us some cap space.

That keeps the same 17 that ended the year.

Gus has confirmed we don't pay minimum wage so let's assume around $150k is the figure the lower guys are on.

Keighran goes to development deal. Still allows him to train FT and be used if needed. Sign someone like Javid Bowen in his place.

Same with Coleman for Baptise. Same with Tui-Loso for Tagatese (who has won a comp)

Doesn't involve us losing anyone we want to keep. When injuries strike we can call up guys with Finals experience instead of rookies. The extra 200 odd games gives us a much better looking squad.

The frustrating thing is Gus mentions lack of experience on his various programs. Yet a quick look on Zero tackle found options to fix that but it is all on development players only now

 

[billypilgrimnz]

No there is no absolute guarantee but you know as well as I do they are good kids, still in the early stages of there careers and will be better players in a season or two. Maybe not with us, maybe they may not achieve 100/150/200 NRL games but they will improve. Personally, I'm not quite sure where May fit's into our top 17 so he may have to move elsewhere if he want's to lock down a top 17 spot.

I think the problem some are having is that the club keeps gambling on solid young players becoming superstars in the future and neglecting to build a squad with an optimal mix of experience, youth, talent, and graft. Sure, those three players may become stars, but can we afford to always be waiting two or three seasons for a bunch of players to suddenly make it?

 

[age.s]

So Franklin, what you're saying is:

1. We dont have enough experience.
2. Experience is important if you want a quality squad.
3. We'll be worse next year despite getting a ton of experience across the squad in 2018.

These 3 things simply cannot be true.

Personally I think 2 is questionable at best. Experience isn't a measure of quality, only a rough measure of trajectory. No one would be complaining if we picked up Ponga and Cotric despite them having under 50 odd games between them. The kids you're poo pooing are probably going to be next years Ponga or Brimson.

I dont think the players we lost affect us in the way you're claiming they do either. I didnt like losing Peachey but he didnt play like a 150 game player. Was prone to brain snaps more than nearly anyone. I like CHN too but hes hardly a veteran.

I agree would could use a player or two (and I think we'll get them) but this fetish for experience is weird. Let's just make sure we pick up some good value in key positions.

 

[OldPanther]

Bulldogs made him an offer and CHN asked for a release, presumably because it was more than we could pay a bench second rower. Personally I don't think we should deny releasing someone who has a family trying to get more money elsewhere.

That's not possible unless the Dogs broke the rules. They'd have to wait until November.

 

[franklin2323]

So Franklin, what you're saying is:

1. We dont have enough experience.
2. Experience is important if you want a quality squad.
3. We'll be worse next year despite getting a ton of experience across the squad in 2018.

These 3 things simply cannot be true.

Personally I think 2 is questionable at best. Experience isn't a measure of quality, only a rough measure of trajectory. No one would be complaining if we picked up Ponga and Cotric despite them having under 50 odd games between them. The kids you're poo pooing are probably going to be next years Ponga or Brimson.

I dont think the players we lost affect us in the way you're claiming they do either. I didnt like losing Peachey but he didnt play like a 150 game player. Was prone to brain snaps more than nearly anyone. I like CHN too but hes hardly a veteran.

I agree would could use a player or two (and I think we'll get them) but this fetish for experience is weird. Let's just make sure we pick up some good value in key positions.

Out goes

Peachey 105 games
Browne 100 games
Wallace 200+
CHN 48
Crichton Atleast played finals.

So we got rid of what we gained during the year. Come September we will still have 1 or 2 guys making their debuts in finals. Whereas others that finished in front of us no such thing.

On Ponga. He didn't win too many games when he was by himself. When he had Pearce and Buhrer etc along side him. That is the sort of stuff we are lacking

 

[age.s]

Wallace aside, Yeo provides more leadership in his big toe than those blokes.

 

[franklin2323]

Wallace aside, Yeo provides more leadership in his big toe than those blokes.

No doubt. A few more Yeo's would be good but no one in the backline has even played 150 FG games. The FB has had 25 games. Same for DWZ back there. Hooker is under 50 combined.

So while those mentioned would be bench/depth players when the injuries/suspensions ( In Hetherington's case) occur. The better teams are never troubled

 

[age.s]

So while those mentioned would be bench/depth players when the injuries/suspensions ( In Hetherington's case) occur. The better teams are never troubled

The "better" teams didn't cop anything close to the level of injuries we did this year. No one in the league did.

It's easy to not be troubled by injury when you're not copping many of them. The squad held up incredibly well in the circumstances.

 

[OldPanther]

The "better" teams didn't cop anything close to the level of injuries we did this year. No one in the league did.

It's easy to not be troubled by injury when you're not copping many of them. The squad held up incredibly well in the circumstances.

Storm had similar outs to us this year.

 

[age.s]

Storm had similar outs to us this year.

Nah, they really didn't. They had some issues but their starting Fullback and Hooker were playing for them at the business end of the season for starters. Munster had some problems, but so did Cleary while Maloney played busted for half the season. We also had season ending injuries to our starting prop and first drop half, while Blake, Whare, Mansour, RCG and Leota all spent a significant portion of the season on the sidelines.

The only team that had our level of injuries this year would be the Eels. That says it all.

EDIT: Nvm Kasiano didn't get a season ender.

 

[Luke Bowden]

They were off contract in 2020 though. We still would of had the space to work with even if we let the contract expire

But we can use the freed up space to upgrade players now. It spreads the cost across another year of cap space.

We can cover CHN with cheaper players.
Peach I’m not sure about, but he got a massive deal.