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General Discussion Thread

tripster

Juniors
Messages
1,962
This competition is so unpredictable. Manly smash Parra. We beat Souths after being down 14-0. Now Manly look like they will lose to Souths - possibly by a very big margin (score is currently 30-6). Makes our comeback against Souths seem even more impressive.
 

billypilgrimnz

First Grade
Messages
5,169
Makes our comeback against Souths seem even more impressive.

Works both ways though - the fact that we couldn't beat a team that had lost by 18 points in each of its last two matches is hardly worth shouting from the rooftops.

Everyone is inconsistent; the actual top teams won't shake themselves out for another month or so.
 
Messages
17,744
From a well known Griffin and Gus hater I'd like to ask a honest question to the supporters of the staff.

Can you now see our starts are an issue and if its not the coaches fault who's is it?
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
This competition is so unpredictable. Manly smash Parra. We beat Souths after being down 14-0. Now Manly look like they will lose to Souths - possibly by a very big margin (score is currently 30-6). Makes our comeback against Souths seem even more impressive.

Early season is like that. The 1st 5 rounds so hard to pick
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
From a well known Griffin and Gus hater I'd like to ask a honest question to the supporters of the staff.

Can you now see our starts are an issue and if its not the coaches fault who's is it?

How do you fix it? How do we stop kicks bouncing off legs, Intercepts etc early on? When in the 2nd half none of it happens. Not a single point scored in the 2nd half yet this year
 
Messages
17,744
And yes ill give Griffin or mostly the fitness staff credit. We are fitter than everyone and finish harder but thats not enough
 

martielang

Bench
Messages
3,504
From a well known Griffin and Gus hater I'd like to ask a honest question to the supporters of the staff.

Can you now see our starts are an issue and if its not the coaches fault who's is it?

Starts are an issue but I’m genuinely not sure how a coach could fix it. We seem to be in the contest for the most part, we defend aggressively & run hard, we just make a mountain of unforced errors & penalties which eventually lead to points.

I just think it’s a bit of a cop out to put it on the coach. Other then addressing it with the players, which he has, changed personnel, which he’s also done, what else can he do? It’s not as if the errors are due to an extravagant game plan or an abnormal set up, they’re just basic unforced errors & they’re mainly from the backs.

Its probably turned into a bit of a mental thing at the moment but once we buck the trend, I think we’ll be fine.
 

Aliceinwonderland

First Grade
Messages
7,952
Starts are an issue but I’m genuinely not sure how a coach could fix it. We seem to be in the contest for the most part, we defend aggressively & run hard, we just make a mountain of unforced errors & penalties which eventually lead to points.

I just think it’s a bit of a cop out to put it on the coach. Other then addressing it with the players, which he has, changed personnel, which he’s also done, what else can he do? It’s not as if the errors are due to an extravagant game plan or an abnormal set up, they’re just basic unforced errors & they’re mainly from the backs.

Its probably turned into a bit of a mental thing at the moment but once we buck the trend, I think we’ll be fine.


I think it's something Penrith sides have had issues with for some years. Solutions. I have no idea.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,997
From a well known Griffin and Gus hater I'd like to ask a honest question to the supporters of the staff.

Can you now see our starts are an issue and if its not the coaches fault who's is it?
Your words 'hater' give away your mindset and if I'm honest, that of a few others on here. Life is too short, I don't hate anyone.

Once you start hating somebody you become irrational. You find ways to ignore 2 for 2. You find ways to blame Hook when our halfback can't convert opportunities in the red zone. People become irrational and say "red zone conversion is solely the coaches fault". Is it? Because if that was so we wouldn't pay halves the most in the team. Instead clubs would be going all out to find the attacking coaching geniuses that will come up with the next red zone masterpiece. For some reason, in spite of this evident truth, it's all the coaches fault (in our case it means Hook), clubs decide that they'll spend a fortune on a half instead. Worse still, the media ignore this too and laud players like JT and Cronk. Crazy eh?

You find ways to ignore us having a halves pairing barely old enough to drink in Hawaii (May and Cleary 2017). Somehow, when we have young, inexperienced halves we are going to buck the trend of every grand final winning team ever and all the teams that made up the top four and make the four and win a grand final. We didn't do that so Hook must be to blame.

Hate doesn't work for me, it removes the ability to critically think and make unbiased judgements.

To answer your question, our starts are a problem and is it Hook's fault. You have to ask why are our starts bad? Well we do have a very young and inexperienced roster, so we can be a bit error prone until we settle into a game. Over enthusiasm leading to snatching at balls and knocking on (Edwards), giving away penalties (Leota, JFH) and making mistakes. In short, we are too enthusiastic, which when you think about it, makes sense given the age of some of our players. Once we are behind, the enthusiasm becomes reined in and the players become more focused on getting the simple things right. A nil-nil scoreboard seems to turn our players into a bunch of 4 year olds running about like skittish puppies. It also then rubs off on the senior players (Maloney made a few clangers in round 1 trying to create something early on) who try and make big plays to offset a mistake, leading to, you guessed it, a mistake.

This is also compounded by our biggest issue and that is red zone conversion (worse than our starts because we can't score against good defences). We often get to the red zone early on, get frustrated and throw terrible passes that can lead to turnovers and the defending team making a break away. This allows the opposition an easy ride into our half and the good teams build pressure and turn it into points.

Are poor starts Hook's fault? Well yes and no, partly. Firstly, since it is a known issue he should be trying to come up with a strategy to combat it and so far he has manifestly failed. Secondly, the starts are also to do with the age of the roster we have. They are young and inexperienced. That isn't Hook's fault but he should be coming up with a plan to help the young players settle down. Conversely, I think the inexperience of the team means they also play fearlessly when we get behind and that helps us get back into the game. They have made mistakes to get us to, ahem, 14 nil down, but they don't let that effect their confidence. Hook has to get credit for creating an environment where that they don't feel diminished by mistake, but he must work out how to settle them down early on.

Perhaps we need to start games cautiously like two heavyweight boxers circling each other in round 1, throwing the odd jab, but not trying to knock each other out yet. Not start at a million miles an hour and giving our young players a sugar rush that makes them think they can dash from dummy half and score a try in the first 5 minutes (Edwards round 1). Hit ups, kick, tackle. That's it. Keep it simple for the first ten. NSW did it brilliantly, albeit for 80 minutes instead of 10 (Gallen hit up, Bird hit, rinse, repeat, kick). A steady start will help settle the nerves and take the edge off the adrenaline so more composed play is possible. Threaten players who give away penalties in the first ten with a spell in reggies or a 100 laps of the oval carrying Steve "Blocker" Roach on their back (obviously, we need Blocker's consent for this).
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,997
Age can't be used as an excuse for Gus at least. We have now been rebuilding for the best part of a decade
I take your point. Gus set out to build the club from mainly local juniors and in the transition period the age of the squad will be quite young. It was his call to go that way so he has to own the outcome we are currently seeing (mistake riddled starts). That'll balance out over time and I think in the long run it is the right strategy. It is interesting to see that Newcastle is doing the same.

Cleary and Hook have both had to deal with effects of that strategy and have had halves that were either past heir best (Soward, Wallace) or very inexperienced (May, Cleary). Meanwhile clubs like the Storm have Cronk, Smith and Slater season after season to steady the ship. The Cowboys have had JT and Morgan for a while. Manly have had DCE, the Broncos Hunt and Milford. They make the eight just about every year and it is easy to see why.

I have faith that we will settle down over the next few years and see our average age improve. Getting experience in the spine will be the most crucial difference. Whether Hook is good enough to get a team with more experience to win a premiership is the key question. I have my doubts. If I was a betting man I would say that next year we will get a new coach and they will be the one to take us to the promised land. With or without Cleary (still not convinced he is the messiah). Our roster will have more players in their mid 20's by then and we will be better for it.
 
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OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
I take your point. Gus set out to build the club from mainly local juniors and in the transition period the age of the squad will be quite young. It was his call to go that way so he has to own the outcome we are currently seeing (mistake riddled starts). That'll balance out over time and I think in the long run it is the right strategy. It is interesting to see that Newcastle is doing the same.

Cleary and Hook have both had to deal with effects of that strategy and have had halves that were either past heir best (Soward, Wallace) or very inexperienced (May, Cleary). Meanwhile clubs like the Storm have Cronk, Smith and Slater season after season to steady the ship. The Cowboys have had JT and Morgan for a while. Manly have had DCE, the Broncos Hunt and Milford. They make the eight just about every year and it is easy to see why.

I have faith that we will settle down over the next few years and see our average age improve. Getting experience in the spine will be the most crucial difference. Whether Hook is good enough to get a team with more experience to win a premiership is the key question. I have my doubts. If I was a betting man I would say that next year we will get a new coach and they will be the one to take us to the promised land. With or without Cleary (still not convinced he is the messiah). Our roster will have more players in their mid 20's by then and we will be better for it.

Been at work all day. Just reading up and you've had some really good comments.
 
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