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betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956

Aliceinwonderland

First Grade
Messages
7,868
Great article. Stats tell a story, not the whole story. Volume stats can be especially misleading.

Anyone suggesting woods is having a better year than RCG because of those numbers really doesn’t get that.




The point I was attempting to make some weeks ago, (not as well as the author mind you). The work done off the ball et al is never recorded either, along with pressure towards opposition players either.
 

MrBlack

Juniors
Messages
1,429
Great article. Stats tell a story, not the whole story. Volume stats can be especially misleading.

Anyone suggesting woods is having a better year than RCG because of those numbers really doesn’t get that.

This is why you need cheap forwards that are perceived to be "plodders". Guys like Brown did a really good job for us. Opened the game and set it up for impact players (namely RCG) to come on after about 20 mins or so. Not always the most popular with the fans but vital for the balance of the team.
 

Aliceinwonderland

First Grade
Messages
7,868
This is why you need cheap forwards that are perceived to be "plodders". Guys like Brown did a really good job for us. Opened the game and set it up for impact players (namely RCG) to come on after about 20 mins or so. Not always the most popular with the fans but vital for the balance of the team.




Nailed it in one. The carryon by some on this forum about what Bowne offered was frankly at times embarrassing.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
I think this was the roundabout point I was trying to make.

The Panthers forum is a happy place at the moment so i didn't want to disturb the harmony but there are definitely double standards at play.

Yeah we are winning. That is all that matters really
 

tripster

Juniors
Messages
1,961
Great article. Stats tell a story, not the whole story. Volume stats can be especially misleading.

Anyone suggesting woods is having a better year than RCG because of those numbers really doesn’t get that.

It is a very interesting article. I hadn't looked at those statistics before. It has an interesting post-script at the end about Tamou as well.
 

MrBlack

Juniors
Messages
1,429
I'll admit it. Pretty sure I've said before RCG needs to improve. Still like him more than Tamou.

RCG is a local junior. If Tamau was the junior and RCG the imported player everyone's stance would change.

It's just natural to have a soft spot for the home grown talent.

PS: the biggest discussion point we have right now is the validity of 2 players stats. Season travelling nicely then.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
RCG is a local junior. If Tamau was the junior and RCG the imported player everyone's stance would change.

It's just natural to have a soft spot for the home grown talent.

PS: the biggest discussion point we have right now is the validity of 2 players stats. Season travelling nicely then.

You're probably right.

As for stats I wonder how our pack is different to a team like the Dogs who have 2 high workload props when we share the load across our entire pack especially our back row. There has to be some measure of impact here.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
You're probably right.

As for stats I wonder how our pack is different to a team like the Dogs who have 2 high workload props when we share the load across our entire pack especially our back row. There has to be some measure of impact here.

When we are at our best it is off our line. it goes both wingers, Both centres hitup. Gets us to the halfway then a kick ideally we don't use our forwards
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
When we are at our best it is off our line. it goes both wingers, Both centres hitup. Gets us to the halfway then a kick ideally we don't use our forwards

This is true and also should get factored into the stats. Wish I had the time to do an in depth analysis between us and the Dogs to see how the different styles effect the stats of the props.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
You're probably right.

As for stats I wonder how our pack is different to a team like the Dogs who have 2 high workload props when we share the load across our entire pack especially our back row. There has to be some measure of impact here.

Exactly. Added to the fact we have such a solid forward pack is that Griffins style of footy since Brisbane has been to use outside backs as extra forwards and really the preferred option to cart the ball up the field. I think the idea is to keep our middle forwards as fresh as possible for defending, this is just me speculating atm but our whole game atm is based of our defensive line speed.
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,328
RCG is a local junior. If Tamau was the junior and RCG the imported player everyone's stance would change.

It's just natural to have a soft spot for the home grown talent.

PS: the biggest discussion point we have right now is the validity of 2 players stats. Season travelling nicely then.
People loved Merrin almost immediately.

Put in for us and where you came from is irrelevant. My favorite Panthers player was Michael Gordon.

Currently the likes of Peachey, Mansour, Merrin, Blake etc. Are all loved and not locally developed.

All things being equal that might tip the scales. But its of very minor importance.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
This is true and also should get factored into the stats. Wish I had the time to do an in depth analysis between us and the Dogs to see how the different styles effect the stats of the props.

That is why I use my eyes more than stats. Thinks like change in tempo of the game can't be shown via stats
 

MrBlack

Juniors
Messages
1,429
People loved Merrin almost immediately.

Put in for us and where you came from is irrelevant. My favorite Panthers player was Michael Gordon.

Currently the likes of Peachey, Mansour, Merrin, Blake etc. Are all loved and not locally developed.

All things being equal that might tip the scales. But its of very minor importance.

Granted there is a lot to like about Merrin.

But I would argue that we did have a lot to do with the development of Mansour, Peachey and Blake. They were at best fringe first graders when we signed them . Blake played Under 20's I think.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
Blakes been in our system the longest out the above mentioned players(since he was 16 or 17). Sauce and Peachey both signed in thei early twenties looking for an opportunity.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
https://www.penrithpanthers.com.au/news/2018/05/23/are-james-maloneys-defensive-problems-a-myth/

There has been a narrative lately that James Maloney's defence is worrying the NSW Blues hierarchy ahead of the selection of teams for Origin I.

But is he that bad?

NRL.com Stats have recorded 75 missed tackles for Maloney this season – 150% of the tally of the next worst, Wests Tigers back-rower Robbie Rochow (51), with Luke Brooks and Mitch Moses in equal third on 47.

Firstly, what is a missed tackle? It's not always getting trampled over by a rampaging ball carrier who sprints off into space. It is any contact by a defender on a ball carrier in an attempt to make a tackle in which that contact is then broken. What this means is that if a centre runs into Maloney, who braces, and bumps off the ball carrier, halting his momentum, and the runner is then fallen on by Dean Whare without taking another step, Maloney earns a missed tackle even though he's done his job.

It turns out this happens to Maloney a lot. See the video below for a list of examples. The vast majority of Maloney's series-high 22 missed tackles in the 2017 Origin series were inconsequential fends or bumps as well. Of course, there are other times when a runner genuinely shrugs Maloney off and makes a break or scores a try. This happens to all edge defenders.

A better metric for analysing a player's defensive frailties involves try causes and break causes. In try causes, Maloney's nine is equal 13th-worst in the NRL and equal second-worst among halves behind Daly Cherry-Evans (12).

Break causes is where Maloney struggles – his 16 are an NRL high. Among halves, Raider Blake Austin (14) and Rooster Cooper Cronk (13) then Cherry-Evans (12) are all just behind him.

Often what this suggests is that edge is being targeted and certainly the opposite halves at those clubs in players like Aidan Sezer (four break causes), Luke Keary (three break causes) and Lachie Croker (three break causes in eight games) are well down on the break cause and try cause lists.

In this analysis, NRL.com Stats has attempted to break down the costliness of halves' misses and found Maloney's missed tackles aren't overly expensive. Of his 75 misses, seven contributed to opposition breaks, or one every 10.7 misses – meaning plenty of inexpensive misses (other misses are still not ideal if they bring another player out of the defensive line to help out but are much easier to recover from).

Top of the tree is Maloney's former Cronulla halves partner Chad Townsend whose 39 season misses have only led to one line break. Johnathan Thurston is another whose misses rarely prove costly and maligned Eels playmaker Mitch Moses is another who may miss a few but doesn't contribute to a stack of breaks – even more notable given his team's defensive woes elsewhere. Worst of the regular halves in this category is Rooster Cooper Cronk, who was something of a defensive maestro for years on the right edge at the Storm. What this tells us is the new defensive structures around him at the Roosters have taken some time to get right with Joey Manu getting swapped for Mitch Aubusson a few weeks ago.

Newcastle's Brock Lamb and Gold Coast's Ash Taylor are another two who may have fewer missed tackles than Maloney but the same number of misses leading to breaks, making their respective misses more costly on average than Maloney's.

In conclusion – Maloney may be one of the weaker defensive halves in the NRL in certain metrics but his apparently shocking amount of missed tackles are deeply misleading. His team has conceded the second-fewest points of any club (and just three points more than the Dragons) and he generally is prepared to get his body in front, even if he poor at "hitting and sticking". To an extent his defensive weaknesses are also balanced out by what he brings in attacking play, leadership, experience and decision-making. It would be a massive call to overlook him for Origin based on his missed tackle tally.
 

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