Gould leaving Penrith

[GongPanther]

Yes. Sold to Tabcorp - I think about 1 year ago. I believe they received an upfront payment for the 5 years (note: not confirmed). They did this for 2 reasons:

1. they wanted some cash, I believe it financed the undercover carpark - the carpark being another story itself but essentially it was built because it was perceived that a good gaming operation has this type of parking. So they sell off gaming to finance a structure that benefits the operation they just sold off.
2. they don't know how to operate a licensed club and thought they'd be better off handing the gaming operation over to an expert.

It is bizarre that a club like Panthers would do this. By the way, my understanding is that the club management team recommended rejecting the Tabcorp proposal.

I see. Steelers Club did the same thing around a year or so to Tatts.

 

[TheFrog]

By 1991 - a little shorter than the amount of time Gus has had - we have 3 semi-final appearances, 2 GF appearances and 1 premiership - without accumulating massive unsustainable losses. Perhaps we should return to the same sort of management principles that were in practice then.

It'd help if an Alexander and a Fittler (among others) were to emerge from our junior system as well.

 

[herbert henry1908]

The power struggle is over and Cleary has won for now.
Word is with his neck on the line he wanted full control over recruitment and retentions to do it 'his way', with Gould's role to be diminished even further.
IC was getting sick of Gould's strong opinions on team tactics too and wanted to do it his way without interference. The board agreed knowing Gould would likely leave.
In Gould 's eyes his role was pretty much redundant.
No point staying around without much say or power.
For fear of losing Nathan IC will be given full control and plenty of time to succeed.
We are headed for interesting times.

Fear of losing Nathan..

That says it all. They’re fearful of losing a limited halfback, all because of the hype.

 

[TheFrog]

Fear of losing Nathan..

That says it all. They’re fearful of losing a limited halfback, all because of the hype.

The club would have been a laughing stock, as WT were when 3 of the big 4 walked. That may be what they were afraid of. We should not give up on the boy just yet.

 

[Westernised Panther]

I would like to thank Gus for coming to Penrith and doing so many good things.

Remember he came to fix us because the place was a rabble, GWS was starting out and had the funds as well as the propaganda machine to kill rugby league in the west.
Now the place is going quite well.
Let’s see if it reverts back to the bad old days.

And that right there was the basis of the five-year plan

 

[herbert henry1908]

The club would have been a laughing stock, as WT were when 3 of the big 4 walked. That may be what they were afraid of. We should not give up on the boy just yet.

We should give up on him as a halfback. The sooner you can identify someone’s abilities the quicker we can move on.

We’re talking about someone who has almost 3 full seasons experience now, that’s enough time to judge his talents.

As for your example, the tigers losing those 3 players didn’t end up hurting them at all. Granted they would’ve hoped to keep Tedesco, but Woods & Moses were
Overrated.




We’ve just made such a hash of this. Recruiting a coach to keep his son.

 

[Westernised Panther]

It'd help if an Alexander and a Fittler (among others) were to emerge from our junior system as well.

and maybe a Simmons/Gower and a Wesser.

How good would that spine be?

 

[TheFrog]

and maybe a Simmons/Gower and a Wesser.

How good would that spine be?

They were both imports (Gowie was a Colyton Colt) but boy couldn't we do with their like now.

 

[Westernised Panther]

They were both imports (Gowie was a Colyton Colt) but boy couldn't we do with their like now.

True, but (and at the risk to derailing the thread topic), didn’t Wesser come through our developmental system?

 

[TheFrog]

As for your example, the tigers losing those 3 players didn’t end up hurting them at all.

You're right. They were missing the finals with them there.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Yes. Sold to Tabcorp - I think about 1 year ago. I believe they received an upfront payment for the 5 years (note: not confirmed). They did this for 2 reasons:

1. they wanted some cash, I believe it financed the undercover carpark - the carpark being another story itself but essentially it was built because it was perceived that a good gaming operation has this type of parking. So they sell off gaming to finance a structure that benefits the operation they just sold off.
2. they don't know how to operate a licensed club and thought they'd be better off handing the gaming operation over to an expert.

It is bizarre that a club like Panthers would do this. By the way, my understanding is that the club management team recommended rejecting the Tabcorp proposal.

This does not bode well. It’s easy to see how we ended up in such a dire state 8 years ago. Successive boards have been absolutely incompetent.

 

[herbert henry1908]

You're right. They were missing the finals with them there.

Ultimately I’m just venting. There’s zero chance of Ivan giving up on his own son at no.7, which is part of the reason I’m so pissed off. We have this situation where this team change is impossible until Ivan Cleary is gone. And he may not be gone for 4 more years.

I can’t see the club wanting to payout another coach so soon.

 

[TheFrog]

True, but (and at the risk to derailing the thread topic), didn’t Wesser come through our developmental system?

Came to us at 18-19. Made his 1st grade debut in his first year (1998) but it wasn't until 2001 that he became a regular.

 

[mxlegend99]

Came to us at 18-19. Made his 1st grade debut in his first year (1998) but it wasn't until 2001 that he became a regular.

No one would want him in the team these days. He's not a half so he's a limited fullback.

 

[Pomoz]

The philosophy and actions of the Board have been upside down since the moment Don Feltis took over as Chairman. The role the Board have assigned themselves makes management almost untenable - it has been so for close on 10 years now. The recent Gould-Bennett / O'Neill- Cleary episode is just a single case in point.

The debacle that it is now, has been covered up by profligate spending in the football club financed by the sale of assets - profit generating assets that had been built up to ensure football could be securely financed into the future. The slide down from here - fi there is one and i think there will be - will partially be due to the incompetent and dumb Chairman/CEO combo- but more so to the fact that the spending will have to stop. I suspect Gus actually wants out because he is smart enough to know that the club is trading poorly, they have sold the gaming revenue for the next 5 years, there are few assets left to sell and the management team at club level is not a patch on its competitors.

Gould has done plenty when it comes to building player pathways, structures etc but he has nothing, zip, to building anything that resembles revenue / profit generation in the football club. Don't say it wasn't his job - his title was GENERAL MANAGER - Football. Jesus, even their spruiking about record memberships was baseless given that some 50% of memberships were freebies.

Gus should be given credit where it is due but to suggest that he is, was, or could be some sort of saviour is over the top - especially when looking at the club beyond what happens around the field and the players.

And if you look at the history of our club - there was a massive change in 1984. A plan was put in place at the time - it was a 5 year plan, the plan was to have 5 of our juniors playing for Australian in 5 years. That was eiether achieved or very close. By 1991 - a little shorter than the amount of time Gus has had - we have 3 semi-final appearances, 2 GF appearances and 1 premiership - without accumulating massive unsustainable losses. Perhaps we should return to the same sort of management principles that were in practice then.

Nobody is suggesting he is a saviour, but you refer to a 91 premiership that was 28 years ago! The world was different place then. The players and coaches had jobs, big dollars were not at stake. In the days when the NRL was amateur the Panthers' board of prominent locals and their mates could still leave us competitive. That doesn't cut it anymore. We have a local accountant, a local lawyer, a CEO who ran the Hawkesbury racing club, an ex-player. I have nothing against any of these, I'm sure they mean well. Are they suitable to be running the club?

In 41 years we have achieved 2 premierships and made the semi finals 13 times. Given our junior base that is pathetic. Where are all the international rep players? Immortals? Junior premierships? The 1984 plan was a success and gave us two grand finals and then what happened? Mediocrity, wooden spoons and nearly exit from the NRL. The plan was clearly flawed because it built nothing sustainable and the culture in the football club was rotten to the core leading to its eventual demise and then NRL wilderness.

We have enjoyed a 31% success rate of making the finals over our glorious history. Under Gus that has been 50%. I'm not including this year. He has made a massive impact to the club at a football level since he arrived. He has made mistakes, Corey Payne being his worst. He was quite unprofessional in how he approached that recruitment.

You refer to his impact on revenue and profit at the football team. I accept the fact he may not have achieved enough there to get a tick in the box. My answer to that is how many football teams make a profit? They all exist on handouts from their clubs. Clubs that were built specifically for the purpose of supporting the team. No team and there is no Panthers club. It would probably be a shopping centre out there or another row of houses. I question whether it is possible for a football team to be self supporting if it is not in a big city like Brisbane or Melbourne where it has its pick of sponsors and TV coverage. I think the best that most clubs can do is to minimise the cost of the team so that their licensed clubs have as small a bill as possible.

As for the spending and the board's choice of CEO's and chairman, unfortunately unless we hire world class executives and not well known locals we are likely to continue to get poor results in the licensed club.Who knows, maybe our CEO does know what he is doing and his strategic plan begins to bear fruit in the next few years.......

 

[tripster]

With the gaming machines, did we sell the rights forever, or did we just sell 5 years of rights for an up-front payment? If we just sold five years worth of rights that is more understandable (and hopefully that is what the deal was) - and was largely about bringing future revenue forward.

Also check this out in last year's annual report under the section headed 'Transactions with related parties'

During the year the Group transacted with Abcoe Distributors Pty Ltd through sponsorship and the purchase of stock. These transactions represented arm's length transactions under normal commercial trading terms. David O'Neill is regarded as having an interest.

During the year, the Group transacted with Hix Electrical under normal commercial trading terms for electrical, plumbing and fire certification works to Panthers Clubs. Ian Hicks is regarded as having an interest.
​

Abcoe Distributors Pty Ltd is a company owned by David O'Neill and Hix Electrical is owned by Ian Hicks.

In the case of public companies, The Corporations Act prohibits related party transactions of this kind without the transaction being put to shareholders for a vote.

The same prohibitions do not apply in the context of Registered Clubs. However, Member approval is still required unless certain exceptions apply, one of those exceptions is that the Financial Benefit to the related party would be reasonable if the Club and the Related party were dealing on ‘arms length terms'. That appears to be the exception that the Club is relying upon for these two transactions.

However, even assuming the transactions were 'arm's length transactions under normal commercial trading terms', there is no disclosure of the value of the transactions. You could have an arm's length transaction that still happens to be for $5 million worth of work. It would be fascinating to find out what the value of these contracts were. Maybe we can get a journalist interested.

 

[Pomoz]

With the gaming machines, did we sell the rights forever, or did we just sell 5 years of rights for an up-front payment? If we just sold five years worth of rights that is more understandable (and hopefully that is what the deal was).

Also check this out in last year's annual report under the section headed 'Transactions with related parties'

During the year the Group transacted with Abcoe Distributors Pty Ltd through sponsorship and the purchase of stock. These transactions represented arm's length transactions under normal commercial trading terms. David O'Neill is regarded as having an interest.

During the year, the Group transacted with Hix Electrical under normal commercial trading terms for electrical, plumbing and fire certification works to Panthers Clubs. Ian Hicks is regarded as having an interest.
​

Abcoe Distributors Pty Ltd is a company owned by David O'Neill and Hix Electrical is owned by Ian Hicks.

In the case of public companies, The Corporations Act prohibits related party transactions of this kind without the transaction being put to shareholders for a vote.

The same prohibitions do not apply in the context of Registered Clubs. However, Member approval is still required unless certain exceptions apply, one of those exceptions is that the Financial Benefit to the related party would be reasonable if the Club and the Related party were dealing on ‘arms length terms'. That appears to be the exception that the Club is relying upon for these two transactions.

However, even assuming the transactions were 'arm's length transactions under normal commercial trading terms', there is no disclosure of the value of the transactions. You could have an arm's length transaction that still happens to be for $5 million worth of work. It would be fascinating to find out what the value of these contracts were. Maybe we can get a journalist interested.

Rolls eyes, lets out a sigh........I'm sure its all in the best interests of the club.......

 

[Kilkenny]

Gould’s position at the club became untenable the minute big Dave took it upon himself to bring Ivan Cleary back to the club.

I’m surprised it has taken this long to get to where we now with Gould exiting the club.

I’ve said for a long time now while not all Gould’s decision were perfect, particularly the hiring of Anthony Griffin, he for the most part turned the club around, got it in good shape, but sadly I’m not sure recent events are in the clubs best interests even if Gus had to go.

When a position is made redundant it is my understanding of Industrial Relations the position no longer exists therefore we cannot simply hire another person as GM of Football because the position no longer exists.

The club has seen fit to effectively hand full autonomy to Ivan Cleary for all things football which is concerning particularly given many are of the belief he is not even a great coach.

Whether you liked Gus or not a lot of his time was spent ensuring our pathway development in terms of our juniors and scouting networks in regional NSW (and other areas) were strong. I fear this is a key area which may be a risk with the new structure and there will be no one to drive the on going process or talent identification.

A lot of our fans have got there wish and Gus is gone. I will wait and see with interest how this sorry mess takes us in the coming years.

 

[darkbloom]

Nobody is suggesting he is a saviour, but you refer to a 91 premiership that was 28 years ago! The world was different place then. The players and coaches had jobs, big dollars were not at stake. In the days when the NRL was amateur the Panthers' board of prominent locals and their mates could still leave us competitive. That doesn't cut it anymore. We have a local accountant, a local lawyer, a CEO who ran the Hawkesbury racing club, an ex-player. I have nothing against any of these, I'm sure they mean well. Are they suitable to be running the club?

In 41 years we have achieved 2 premierships and made the semi finals 13 times. Given our junior base that is pathetic. Where are all the international rep players? Immortals? Junior premierships? The 1984 plan was a success and gave us two grand finals and then what happened? Mediocrity, wooden spoons and nearly exit from the NRL. The plan was clearly flawed because it built nothing sustainable and the culture in the football club was rotten to the core leading to its eventual demise and then NRL wilderness.

We have enjoyed a 31% success rate of making the finals over our glorious history. Under Gus that has been 50%. I'm not including this year. He has made a massive impact to the club at a football level since he arrived. He has made mistakes, Corey Payne being his worst. He was quite unprofessional in how he approached that recruitment.

You refer to his impact on revenue and profit at the football team. I accept the fact he may not have achieved enough there to get a tick in the box. My answer to that is how many football teams make a profit? They all exist on handouts from their clubs. Clubs that were built specifically for the purpose of supporting the team. No team and there is no Panthers club. It would probably be a shopping centre out there or another row of houses. I question whether it is possible for a football team to be self supporting if it is not in a big city like Brisbane or Melbourne where it has its pick of sponsors and TV coverage. I think the best that most clubs can do is to minimise the cost of the team so that their licensed clubs have as small a bill as possible.

As for the spending and the board's choice of CEO's and chairman, unfortunately unless we hire world class executives and not well known locals we are likely to continue to get poor results in the licensed club.Who knows, maybe our CEO does know what he is doing and his strategic plan begins to bear fruit in the next few years.......

Yes, it is true, it is some time ago. Back then the Salary cap was not covered by the NRL grant. In fact the Grant today covers the salary cap PLUS. The point is that when change occurs you expect different results. From a financial perspective the result is arguably more admirable. Having the salary cap plus covered and STILL losing $5 or $6m per year is simply diabolical.

To suggest the culture was rotten to the core following 1991 demonstrates a shallowness of understanding. In fact during that period the club showed a resilience that few could have endured. Definitely there was little to celebrate on the field in that period ... interestingly Gus left when things started to get tough and he was promised an open cheque book at his next employer.

Only a couple of clubs make a profit or are self-sufficient but it is simply not true that no team means no club - in fact the reverse is true. No football team, the club is spurred onto bigger success because there is no financial drain.Look at the clubs moving ahead in leaps and bounds and none of them have football teams.

The bottom line is that Panthers has ALWAYS highly valued its team and has always tried to ensure its future stability and viability. Gus has tried to buy success - it is not his fault because the philosophy adopted by the Board - that success in Rugby League converts to overall success - suited his own beliefs and it meant that spending was no problem.

Gus' worst recruitment decision was not Corey Payne but Warren Wilson - employed him one even during a sponsors harbour cruise - the Board conducted no checks. Corey Payne did no damage, Wilson did a heap of damage.

 

[Buzzard Breath]

double post