Knightsrebuild - time to do something.

[Joel-22]

In what position do you think Dane would 'kill it' at his next club?

Centre.

 

[Spot On]

Ball Boy?

Lol.

 

[macavity]

Dane Gagai is the least of our problems - even earning what he is earning, which is market rate.

 

[Spot On]

Gags had huge defensive issues when in the centres here under Wayne. Add him to the long list of players with such issues.

He's got the huge contract now and with that comes huge expectation. He is a marquee signing and he must play like one.

 

[The Showstopper]

Dane has been a humble kid ever since has been here. I think the focus placed on him has to a point been us putting expectation that is unfair given he has been shifted around a fair bit. If he goes back to Brisbane I won't blame him. Wayne and Qld brings best out in him. He did also give full credit to his Qld teammates for his hat trick.

 

[Still Nutty]

I, like many of you have been watching the club's performances closely and hoping that things are improving. The jury is out but I am happy that we are cleaning house.

We are at a point where I think its time again to reach out to the club for further information and to clarify the clubs position on a few issues as I feel that they are just trying to get to seasons end and hope things improve and some of their public statements and media stories seem to be more about positive PR than anything else.

What does everyone think, is it time to ask some questions?

I think the idea of approaching to seek an update is worth pursuing but I expect that timing is probably more suited to after round 26. I think it would be good to get a sense of where to for 2017. The interest I would have relates to :

· where are we at/heading financially (club and Salary Cap ) - issues to cover would be ownership timeframe (I note the committee is being established); where do we sit and what are the options for TPA and sponsorships moving forward?
· playing roster and recruiting for 2017 and beyond - I am more interested in what is considered our best squad at present and moving forward with those on our books for 2017 and what that means for key buys we will be looking for
· What can the supporter group (us and others) do to contribute/engage/support and facilitate the club moving forward?
Whilst I know there is not a unanimous opinion in here, I personally would also like to relay that we are patient and have support for what Nathan Brown is trying to do and what he has got to work with at present ? I think this is contingent on how much of the playing squad he gets to settle on for the rest of the season to show what our future is with the fully available squad to work with (I think Mullen is the significant missing component at present and hope he is in the frame within the next week or 2)

I have just done a review of the 6 games since May and we have used 28 players to fill the 17 spots - for the last 3 games we have had the same spine named - Gaigai, Cogger, Hodko and Levi/Randell (these have been sharing, so counted them as equal parts). It was interesting to note this weekend that Gaigai only spent minimal time as fullback, with Sione appearing to manage the responsibility for most of the game.

Anyway, as I flagged with resurrecting this thread ? it has been just over 12 months since the efforts of Knightsrebuild were progressed so in the spirit of reviews and showing our continued interest and passion, it would be worth the approach to see how it is received?

 

[Nuffy]

**** Putting my comments in here as well ****



I will preface my comment by stating clear that I didn't think Stone was the answer but it amazes me that Brown has been given miles more latitude than Stone ever was.

Generally the fans have accepted everything he has said, and the club, at face value this year, something we've never done before.

I am amazed that we are happy to write off years on the assumption that somehow he will get it right.

Somehow we've reached a point where we have to wait another 2-10 yrs before we can avoid the spoon.

Sure he's done some things we've agreed with and show underperformers the door, but the junior experiment is ongoing and his recruitment thus far is cast offs from other clubs or doing the media polka with old players still under contract.

The good times are still just a haze in the distance and does anyone really think players, sponsors and fans will flock to a club that is odds on to win three spoons in a row.

I refuse to drink the koolaid, the club hasn't earnt that right, as we've suffer through 10 plus years of mediocrity, excuse me if I hold judgement until I see meaningful improvement. I haven't seen it yet as we are on target to be the worst ARL / NRL club in 16 yrs.

And let's be realistic about the future, we've never been a club that attract name players easily, after collecting possibly 3 spoons in a row, how will we break the status quo. Also do we actually think that young players will stay long term to be cannon fodder, we have to show them we are building a team and the evidence thus far is limited.

I'm still skeptical about the cap situation as we've let go so many name players and signed no one of note beyond Trent. Is it a convenient excuse that can't be verified but gives unlimited cover to the current hierarchy.

Are we running below the cap deliberately, because we have to due to the NRL turning off the money tap?

Make no mistake, just about every club is making their roster better for 2017, what have we done and who have we signed? Right now it looks highly likely that we'll have a weaker roster than 2016 as we've added no one.

And after we win 2-4 games in 2017, will we all be satisfied with the results?

 

[Frederick]

**** Putting my comments in here as well ****



I will preface my comment by stating clear that I didn't think Stone was the answer but it amazes me that Brown has been given miles more latitude than Stone ever was.

Generally the fans have accepted everything he has said, and the club, at face value this year, something we've never done before.

I am amazed that we are happy to write off years on the assumption that somehow he will get it right.

Somehow we've reached a point where we have to wait another 2-10 yrs before we can avoid the spoon.

Sure he's done some things we've agreed with and show underperformers the door, but the junior experiment is ongoing and his recruitment thus far is cast offs from other clubs or doing the media polka with old players still under contract.

The good times are still just a haze in the distance and does anyone really think players, sponsors and fans will flock to a club that is odds on to win three spoons in a row.

I refuse to drink the koolaid, the club hasn't earnt that right, as we've suffer through 10 plus years of mediocrity, excuse me if I hold judgement until I see meaningful improvement. I haven't seen it yet as we are on target to be the worst ARL / NRL club in 16 yrs.

And let's be realistic about the future, we've never been a club that attract name players easily, after collecting possibly 3 spoons in a row, how will we break the status quo. Also do we actually think that young players will stay long term to be cannon fodder, we have to show them we are building a team and the evidence thus far is limited.

I'm still skeptical about the cap situation as we've let go so many name players and signed no one of note beyond Trent. Is it a convenient excuse that can't be verified but gives unlimited cover to the current hierarchy.

Are we running below the cap deliberately, because we have to due to the NRL turning off the money tap?

Make no mistake, just about every club is making their roster better for 2017, what have we done and who have we signed? Right now it looks highly likely that we'll have a weaker roster than 2016 as we've added no one.

And after we win 2-4 games in 2017, will we all be satisfied with the results?

So, you started this whole Knights rebuild thing because you were sick of how things were at the club. You wanted major changes. I get it, most knights fans thought the same. So what did the Knights do? They started making changes. Sacked Stone. Pushed Hagan out the door. Started terminating high cost, underperforming players. Brought in Brown and Mooney to fix the mess.

Fast forward one year and Brown has been true to his word of making underperformers accountable, and has blooded a shitton of juniors. Yet because the results haven't been there on the field, you want Brown to be held accountable? He's halfway through his first season with a club that's been broken for a long time, and is doing his best with what's at his disposal, considering large parts of the cap are either sitting on the sidelines or playing for other clubs.

How does this Knights rebuild thing work now? When you started it, you acknowledged it would take time to fix the mess. But now you and your mate macavity are demanding instant results? So when we win the spoon this year are you going to have another meeting with the club and demand Browns sacking? Then do the same with our next head coach at the end of their first year?

We all want the same thing - a successful team to cheer for. However most of us aren't so naive to have expected brown to have instant results. We all knew this was going to be a painful year - no point in burning down the joint until we've seen what Brown can do with the full cap at his disposal

 

[perverse]

All pretty true there, Fred. We got what we wanted, we have to wait for the eggs to hatch and see what we get. I think the club would have a very strong response to any questioning you did at this point. They have taken a lot of action in the past 12 months, but it's still early days. You'd have to say that they're holding up their end at this point, even if it's not perfect.

 

[Nuffy]

Fred, my point remains, right now we've seen some good and lots of bad and the good times aren't coming any time soon so of course Brown et al are accountable, that's the nature of the roles they fulfil.

I've got a small amount of experience in business and I've never seen a successful plan or process start with no clear metrics or timeline for improvement. Right now we assume things may get better in 2018 but no one quite knows. What have we been told to expect in 2017?

I'm pleased we are making changes but I just can't accept the timeline because I haven't seen one, nor has anyone. How long do we expect to survive winning a few games a year?

You saw Barry's Tooheys article today, we'll make a 600k loss this year cutting the guts out of the club, that's not sustainable, another year like this year and we are done for.

Accountability is the only tool we have left, show us that the club is doing everything it can to improve. Look at the Bird issue, how long has that been dragging on now, if he's the answer, then get it done and show the long suffering fans that we are doing something.

 

[Swarzey]

It really seems repeating the same mistakes that got us into this position, albeit provided some temporary hope, is the only thing that will please Nuffy and co. Instant success, success now not later. You bitched about the salary cap being a mess, acknowledge how bad it is but completely disregard it's state when we sign "cap friendly" players, expecting the club to do and sign better. Something that's well and truly beyond what Brown and the club can handle due to previous administrations; yet you expect the team to be improve for 2017. Tell me, how do we improve the squad for 2017 on just $250k?

None of this is helped when we signed Hodkinson and Paea -- 550k for Hokko and I'm sure a good 300-400k for Paea -- before Brown was announced as the head coach. Considerable amount that he would have likely spent better.

The only way for your expectations to be met are to repeat the same mistakes of the past. Let's do it! And then in three, four years after we've had a lone finals appearance, just scraping into 8th and getting bundled out in week one, you can start Knights Rebuild 2.0.

 

[Frederick]

Fred, my point remains, right now we've seen some good and lots of bad and the good times aren't coming any time soon so of course Brown et al are accountable, that's the nature of the roles they fulfil.

I've got a small amount of experience in business and I've never seen a successful plan or process start with no clear metrics or timeline for improvement. Right now we assume things may get better in 2018 but no one quite knows. What have we been told to expect in 2017?

I'm pleased we are making changes but I just can't accept the timeline because I haven't seen one, nor has anyone. How long do we expect to survive winning a few games a year?

Sport is an impossible thing to put a timeline for success on, because there are so many uncontrollable factors. Injuries can't be controlled. Other teams fortunes can't be controlled. Junior development, whilst it can be nurtured and have all resources tipped into, largely can't be controlled. Some shine, others plod. What would Brown and he club gain from saying to everyone "in three years time we're going to be premiers"? All it's going to do is place undue pressure on all in the club, and as can be seen from the Tinkler days, most crumble under that sort of pressure. No doubt Brown and the club have an internal timeline and metric they're working to, but there's no point in them releasing it publicly because then they're have every tom, dick and Harry not related to the club at all breathing down their necks to perform

You saw Barry's Tooheys article today, we'll make a 600k loss this year cutting the guts out of the club, that's not sustainable, another year like this year and we are done for.

Depends what you mean by "guts". For all we know it was admin and back office jobs that have been made completely redundant through the process of combining roles within the organization.

Accountability is the only tool we have left, show us that the club is doing everything it can to improve. Look at the Bird issue, how long has that been dragging on now, if he's the answer, then get it done and show the long suffering fans that we are doing something.

IMO, in the short amount of time they've had they've shown they've been doing plenty, by cutting underperforming, overpaid players, and making sure promising juniors like Tapine know that won't be held to ransom and forced to pay overs anymore. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither were successful football teams

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

**** Putting my comments in here as well ****



I will preface my comment by stating clear that I didn't think Stone was the answer but it amazes me that Brown has been given miles more latitude than Stone ever was.

Generally the fans have accepted everything he has said, and the club, at face value this year, something we've never done before.

I am amazed that we are happy to write off years on the assumption that somehow he will get it right.

Somehow we've reached a point where we have to wait another 2-10 yrs before we can avoid the spoon.

Sure he's done some things we've agreed with and show underperformers the door, but the junior experiment is ongoing and his recruitment thus far is cast offs from other clubs or doing the media polka with old players still under contract.

The good times are still just a haze in the distance and does anyone really think players, sponsors and fans will flock to a club that is odds on to win three spoons in a row.

I refuse to drink the koolaid, the club hasn't earnt that right, as we've suffer through 10 plus years of mediocrity, excuse me if I hold judgement until I see meaningful improvement. I haven't seen it yet as we are on target to be the worst ARL / NRL club in 16 yrs.

And let's be realistic about the future, we've never been a club that attract name players easily, after collecting possibly 3 spoons in a row, how will we break the status quo. Also do we actually think that young players will stay long term to be cannon fodder, we have to show them we are building a team and the evidence thus far is limited.

I'm still skeptical about the cap situation as we've let go so many name players and signed no one of note beyond Trent. Is it a convenient excuse that can't be verified but gives unlimited cover to the current hierarchy.

Are we running below the cap deliberately, because we have to due to the NRL turning off the money tap?

Make no mistake, just about every club is making their roster better for 2017, what have we done and who have we signed? Right now it looks highly likely that we'll have a weaker roster than 2016 as we've added no one.

And after we win 2-4 games in 2017, will we all be satisfied with the results?

For me, the issue is simple: if we shaft Brown, who would replace him??

Give the club would have chewed up and spat out Brown in under a year, no coach would want to touch us. We'd be back to Hagan and in a worse position than ever.

The position we are in right now means we cannot be all that picky. We signed Brown and now we have to put our faith in him. Maybe he works out and maybe he doesnt, but shafting ANOTHER coach is definitely not the answer...

 

[Alex28]

And this is where the Time To Rebuild movement jumps the shark. He's doing what you wanted, but not prepared to give him the time to get results.

What is burning another coach going to achieve?

The club will be stronger next year - in the back end. Mooney and most likely Brennan will help get players here. But things won't really change until we get new ownership.

Until then, progress will be slow but as long as we have blokes buying into what the club is doing out on the field I'm ok.

 

[macavity]

We are heading in the right direction - which at the moment, is simply not heading backwards at a rate of knots.

We are throwing enough shit against the wall, some is going to stick.

I honestly think we are doing an ok job with what we have available to us, comparatively speaking. It is what we have have to work with that has to change, not necessarily the work we are doing.

Some of that will come with cleaning up the cap, but most needs to come via those massive and maybe even unobtainable changes - ownership and (just for you Fred) TPAs.

 

[Alex28]

You saw Barry's Tooheys article today, we'll make a 600k loss this year cutting the guts out of the club, that's not sustainable, another year like this year and we are done for.

How many clubs are making a profit this year?

Parramatta - even with paying players in TPA's in paper bags in a local park - will lose $8 Million this year. Cowboys - even with prize money from winning a premiership - will lose $1 Million.

The NRL will be quite happy with us only losing $600K in all honesty. A few more sponsors will cover that next year...

 

[macavity]

How many clubs are making a profit this year?

Parramatta - even with paying players in TPA's in paper bags in a local park - will lose $8 Million this year. Cowboys - even with prize money from winning a premiership - will lose $1 Million.

The NRL will be quite happy with us only losing $600K in all honesty. A few more sponsors will cover that next year...

Difference is... we don't have it to lose.

And we are going to find sponsors coming off the worst season in the modern NRL?

 

[Alex28]

If they move forwards, they will find sponsors. Whilst we are owned by the NRL they will cover us. They need a viable club to sell...

 

[Chicken_Hunter]

The NRL isnt covering us though, we have to pay them back whatever money they give us outside the normal grants

 

[Nuffy]

Has anyone actually read my post, I wasn't calling for Brown's sacking but I do think that he needs to account in more detail for the situation we find ourselves in and the pathway forward.

This will be the worst performance by a ARL / NRL for 16 plus years, we will win a single game in a full season.

My frustration remains that the entire "project" has little detail around it, we are asked to commit to something that has no end date. After the 10 plus years we've had, we deserve better that another round of maybes.

Show us the data that things are improving because we deserve that, show us all the good things that are happening behind the scenes.

Accountability was supposed to be our motto, now its a dirty word. Now we are happy to sit back and see what happens, assuming that everything will fix itself over time.

Why shouldn't Brown, the board and CEO be expected to account for the situation in detail, candidly and regularly, considering we'll win one game this year.

It is a source of amazement to me that the same people that bagged Stone mercilessly last year, now allow Brown unlimited latitude and time.

I'm holding Brown to the same scrutiny that I held Stone to, I'm not asking that he be sacked, but I do expect the board and CEO to be far more engaged and challenging for Brown than they were with Stone, just so we don't end up in the same shambles.

Just remember, this time last year, Stone was still coach and the board and CEO were backing him and his strategies, now Brown is flavour of the month. I'm skeptical until its proven that we are moving out of the dark ages and right now its far from certain. I don't take anything at face value from the club because they have a long history of letting us down, they have to earn that right again.

So if you don't agree with me, then that's fine, I do hope you are right because another year like 2016 and we'll be in a deeper hole.