NRL's growth mindset points to 18th team. And it ain't Perth.

[Perth Red]

Things seem to be getting mixed up lol. Nrl needs a better reserve grade and cities with no hope of ever getting an nrl team need a decent level of RL to watch and support in a legit comp. Mixing these two things hasn’t worked on many levels since forever. Maybe it’s time for something different? (When the nrl finds the missing $200mill a year in revenue of course!)

 

[Colk]

Things seem to be getting mixed up lol. Nrl needs a better reserve grade and cities with no hope of ever getting an nrl team need a decent level of RL to watch and support in a legit comp. Mixing these two things hasn’t worked on many levels since forever. Maybe it’s time for something different? (When the nrl finds the missing $200mill a year in revenue of course!)

Exactly

 

[Colk]

Loads of money wasted sounds like keeping zombie clubs alive when there are cheaper ways to achieve the same goal

Sure cheaper ways. I’m sure it will be cheaper for a QLD NRL side to run juniors 500km away.

 

[The Great Dane]

Furthermore, if the Capras or Mackay Cutters somehow survive long term, they won’t have the money to purchase players and no player with any dreams of playing NRL will go there.

It's worse than that.

There's only so much space in each NRL club's junior system, so if, e.g., the Q Cup was to fold, hundreds of players would be lost from the talent pool overnight.

Basically any kid that was missed by the NRL scouts would have no other realistic pathway to the NRL, and that would be a disaster for a sport that already struggles with player retention and participation numbers in the most important demographics.

 

[The Great Dane]

Loads of money wasted sounds like keeping zombie clubs alive when there are cheaper ways to achieve the same goal

Cheaper doesn't necessarily equal better.

In fact the cheapest options are almost universally the worst options.

 

[Canard]

Things seem to be getting mixed up lol. Nrl needs a better reserve grade and cities with no hope of ever getting an nrl team need a decent level of RL to watch and support in a legit comp. Mixing these two things hasn’t worked on many levels since forever. Maybe it’s time for something different? (When the nrl finds the missing $200mill a year in revenue of course!)

Creating a Australia wide 2nd tier competition is a completly unrealistic goal though.

Spending millions on a 2nd tier comp just isn't something the game can support nor one that makes any financial sense.

And for what end? So people in Perth and Gosford get to watch Rugby League live? What an extravagance.

The QLD Cup provides is a pathway for the development of NRL players and keeps those who don't make NRL in the game. That's a far higher priority then "let's have a comp that ignores player development".

 

[MugaB]

Creating a Australia wide 2nd tier competition is a completly unrealistic goal though.

Spending millions on a 2nd tier comp just isn't something the game can support nor one that makes any financial sense.

And for what end? So people in Perth and Gosford get to watch Rugby League live? What an extravagance.

The QLD Cup provides is a pathway for the development of NRL players and keeps those who don't make NRL in the game. That's a far higher priority then "let's have a comp that ignores player development".

Its exactly the point tho isn't it, those who here advocate for this 2nd tier nationwide reserve grade, are just wanting to have Perth, Adelaide, etc involved in a higher level than what the current sides are in... but they just aren't going to cut it.. at least for the first decade at least, i would prefer a top down approach for those two areas especially, to give them a head start, but it won't be going to be an addition to the nsw or qrl cup, best way for them to grow is to have an established club run it till they become competitive. ie easts tigers, or NS bears etc
But they ain't going to go to those areas without an incentive, that being ownership of branding and NRL 1st grade license...
a national reserve grade comp is nonsense, but something like an annual nationwide/pacific club knockout would be better, get the pirates, hunters, rams, wide bay bulls, CC or wyong roos, thunderbolts, silktails, cutters etc, and set up an annual gala, akin to what the koori knockout is like, that was something the brl did back in the day, its kinda how the areas in the QRL grew from, they all had their own comps, much like Newcastle has, in different areas of QLD, but they came together as a club knockout

 

[Perth Red]

Creating a Australia wide 2nd tier competition is a completly unrealistic goal though.

Spending millions on a 2nd tier comp just isn't something the game can support nor one that makes any financial sense.

And for what end? So people in Perth and Gosford get to watch Rugby League live? What an extravagance.

The QLD Cup provides is a pathway for the development of NRL players and keeps those who don't make NRL in the game. That's a far higher priority then "let's have a comp that ignores player development".

It might seem like it right now but I bet most people said the same about the idea of a nrlw comp ten years ago.

it’s not an extravagance to give fans a club to support.

 

[Iamback]

Its exactly the point tho isn't it, those who here advocate for this 2nd tier nationwide reserve grade, are just wanting to have Perth, Adelaide, etc involved in a higher level than what the current sides are in... but they just aren't going to cut it.. at least for the first decade at least, i would prefer a top down approach for those two areas especially, to give them a head start, but it won't be going to be an addition to the nsw or qrl cup, best way for them to grow is to have an established club run it till they become competitive. ie easts tigers, or NS bears etc
But they ain't going to go to those areas without an incentive, that being ownership of branding and NRL 1st grade license...
a national reserve grade comp is nonsense, but something like an annual nationwide/pacific club knockout would be better, get the pirates, hunters, rams, wide bay bulls, CC or wyong roos, thunderbolts, silktails, cutters etc, and set up an annual gala, akin to what the koori knockout is like, that was something the brl did back in the day, its kinda how the areas in the QRL grew from, they all had their own comps, much like Newcastle has, in different areas of QLD, but they came together as a club knockout

We almost have every team with a feeder side anyway. The issue now is say Perth want to run a side in the semi professional NSW/QLD Cups. They'd be eaten alive by full timers.

Putting all those sides together in a national comp. Opens up slots in either existing teams or for new teams for developing talent

 

[Colk]

Creating a Australia wide 2nd tier competition is a completly unrealistic goal though.

Spending millions on a 2nd tier comp just isn't something the game can support nor one that makes any financial sense.

And for what end? So people in Perth and Gosford get to watch Rugby League live? What an extravagance.

The QLD Cup provides is a pathway for the development of NRL players and keeps those who don't make NRL in the game. That's a far higher priority then "let's have a comp that ignores player development".

I don’t think I was suggesting a nation wide RG competition. I would suggest the NSW Cup just follow the model of the QLD Cup so have a team based in Coffs, Riverina, Wollongong etc rather than just have all the teams in Sydney.

The biggest advantage that the QLD Cup has is that there are regions involved outside of Brisbane so a bloke who grows up in say Rocky or Mackay can get picked up whilst playing for a regional team as opposed to being forced to move to Brisbane or Sydney in order to make it.

The idea of connecting areas is something that other sports do a lot better than league and I feel that it would rejuvenate regional football.

I don’t think a team in Adelaide for example would work in a second grade competition unless the budget of these clubs would be substantial

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Creating a Australia wide 2nd tier competition is a completly unrealistic goal though.

Spending millions on a 2nd tier comp just isn't something the game can support nor one that makes any financial sense.

And for what end? So people in Perth and Gosford get to watch Rugby League live? What an extravagance.

The QLD Cup provides is a pathway for the development of NRL players and keeps those who don't make NRL in the game. That's a far higher priority then "let's have a comp that ignores player development".

Basketball Australia manages to do it with a conference based semi-pro NBL1 that has imports from all around the world playing with and against local talent.

NBL1 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The game wastes over $60m a year propping up NRL clubs by having the annual grant at 130% of the salary cap. That money could easily support a second division and increase the amount of players who are fully professional.

That's enough money to support a 20 team conference based second division with a salary cap of $3m.

 

[Canard]

It might seem like it right now but I bet most people said the same about the idea of a nrlw comp ten years ago.

it’s not an extravagance to give fans a club to support.

The NRLW is using the existing NRL clubs to create a new market, which is booming in terms of participation and will open up massive sponsorship and TV opportunities.

You are talking about creating a 2nd tier or 3rd tier, completely divorced from the NRL and one which avoids player development, so that what 500 or 1000 people can watch?

If Perth were to gain entry into the NRL (which seems likely within the next 5 seasons or so) what function would this competition then have?

 

[Colk]

Basketball Australia manages to do it with a conference based semi-pro NBL1 that has imports from all around the world playing with and against local talent.

NBL1 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The game wastes over $60m a year propping up NRL clubs by having the annual grant at 130% of the salary cap. That money could easily support a second division and increase the amount of players who are fully professional.

That's enough money to support a 20 team conference based second division with a salary cap of $3m.

Exactly.

You essentially extend out the current Queensland Cup and split it into two conferences of 10 with the biggest QLD Cup sides, PNG and maybe Darwin and the other 10 being NSW Cup sides like Newtown, North Sydney with maybe Fiji and a few others

Got to love the team Cockburn Cougars

 

[Canard]

Basketball Australia manages to do it with a conference based semi-pro NBL1 that has imports from all around the world playing with and against local talent.

NBL1 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The game wastes over $60m a year propping up NRL clubs by having the annual grant at 130% of the salary cap. That money could easily support a second division and increase the amount of players who are fully professional.

That's enough money to support a 20 team conference based second division with a salary cap of $3m.

This is just all the existing State Basketball comps re-badged as NBL. This competition wasn't created overnight, no new teams were formed in its re-branding. All these state based leagues have been around for 30 or so years.

There was no "investment" in this beyond what was already there. I think the NRL should definitely strive for this model, as in having local competitions in WA, SA, Vic that cover the entire state based on a QLD Cup model.

 

[Perth Red]

The NRLW is using the existing NRL clubs to create a new market, which is booming in terms of participation and will open up massive sponsorship and TV opportunities.

You are talking about creating a 2nd tier or 3rd tier, completely divorced from the NRL and one which avoids player development, so that what 500 or 1000 people can watch?

If Perth were to gain entry into the NRL (which seems likely within the next 5 seasons or so) what function would this competition then have?

Dont disagree but the point stands, if you'd said 10 years ago we'd be aiming for a 18 team professional womens comp alongside NRL the same arguments would have been made. No players, no ROI, who'd watch it etc etc

Could a second division carve out a space for streaming service and fans who dont currently have an NRL club to follow and who will never get one?
Its not about Perth, though Id have loved to have been watching the WA Reds in NRL second division for the last 20 years tbh than just the odd NRL game and the rest on TV of clubs who I have little attachment to, its about any city that doesn't have an NRL club and RL fans who are missing out on following a team in a legit comp because we only effectively have one comp and weird pseudo reserve grade comps and thats it.

Its not completely divorced, its part of the tier of RL in this country and the pacific. If we went with an NRL reserve grade of mostly U21's and say 8-10 first graders not needed for first team action then a 22 year old player who doesn't make the first grade cut following year can play in this second division and remain developing and in the shop window to be picked up later in their career if they go on to improve. This model solves the U20's national comp issue as well as grows the games in markets not currently covered by NRL.

NRL (FT)
NRL reserve grade (FT)
NRLW (PT)
NRL2 (PT/FT)
NRL WA, Vic ,Qlnd,NSW,NZ,PNG etc State based comps (amateur)

 

[mongoose]

at least have a state comp that covers VIC, SA, WA, NT and TAS - i guess like the NEAFL does

 

[Colk]

Dont disagree but the point stands, if you'd said 10 years ago we'd be aiming for a 18 team professional womens comp alongside NRL the same arguments would have been made. No players, no ROI, who'd watch it etc etc

Could a second division carve out a space for streaming service and fans who dont currently have an NRL club to follow and who will never get one?
Its not about Perth, though Id have loved to have been watching the WA Reds in NRL second division for the last 20 years tbh than just the odd NRL game and the rest on TV of clubs who I have little attachment to, its about any city that doesn't have an NRL club and RL fans who are missing out on following a team in a legit comp because we only effectively have one comp and weird pseudo reserve grade comps and thats it.

Its not completely divorced, its part of the tier of RL in this country and the pacific. If we went with an NRL reserve grade of mostly U21's and say 8-10 first graders not needed for first team action then a 22 year old player who doesn't make the first grade cut following year can play in this second division and remain developing and in the shop window to be picked up later in their career if they go on to improve. This model solves the U20's national comp issue as well as grows the games in markets not currently covered by NRL.

NRL (FT)
NRL reserve grade (FT)
NRLW (PT)
NRL2 (PT/FT)
NRL WA, Vic ,Qlnd,NSW,NZ,PNG etc State based comps (amateur)

It can’t be a third grade - no sport has tried to make a fully professional third grade because it wouldn’t work.

This idea has to either be the reserve grade or a minor league where there is no reserve grade like what happens in the States.

 

[Canard]

Dont disagree but the point stands, if you'd said 10 years ago we'd be aiming for a 18 team professional womens comp alongside NRL the same arguments would have been made. No players, no ROI, who'd watch it etc etc

Could a second division carve out a space for streaming service and fans who dont currently have an NRL club to follow and who will never get one?
Its not about Perth, though Id have loved to have been watching the WA Reds in NRL second division for the last 20 years tbh than just the odd NRL game and the rest on TV of clubs who I have little attachment to, its about any city that doesn't have an NRL club and RL fans who are missing out on following a team in a legit comp because we only effectively have one comp and weird pseudo reserve grade comps and thats it.

Its not completely divorced, its part of the tier of RL in this country and the pacific. If we went with an NRL reserve grade of mostly U21's and say 8-10 first graders not needed for first team action then a 22 year old player who doesn't make the first grade cut following year can play in this second division and remain developing and in the shop window to be picked up later in their career if they go on to improve. This model solves the U20's national comp issue as well as grows the games in markets not currently covered by NRL.

NRL (FT)
NRL reserve grade (FT)
NRLW (PT)
NRL2 (PT/FT)
NRL WA, Vic ,Qlnd,NSW,NZ,PNG etc State based comps (amateur)

That market though, area that has no NRL club or significant local comp is pretty limited though.

Its a huge investment to fill such a small niche.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

This is just all the existing State Basketball comps re-badged as NBL. This competition wasn't created overnight, no new teams were formed in its re-branding. All these state based leagues have been around for 30 or so years.

There was no "investment" in this beyond what was already there. I think the NRL should definitely strive for this model, as in having local competitions in WA, SA, Vic that cover the entire state based on a QLD Cup model.

Queensland Cup and NSW Cup could become NRL1 North and NRL1 South.

Without the ARLC bailing out NRL clubs to the tune of $4m on top of the salary cap we will probably see two or three Sydney clubs forced to drop down to NRL1, which will help it gain credibility and increase its worth to broadcasters.

NRL

Auckland Warriors
Brisbane Broncos
Brisbane Tigers
Canberra Raiders
Canterbury Bulldogs
Gold Coast Titans
Manly Seagulls
Moreton Bay Dolphins
Newcastle Knights
North Queensland Cowboys
Parramatta Eels
Penrith Panthers
South Sydney Rabbitohs
Southern Dragons
Sydney Roosters
West Coast Pirates

NRL1 North

Brisbane Devils
Cairns Cyclones
Central Queensland Capras
Ipswich Jets
Mackay Cutters
New Caledonia XIII
PNG Hunters
Sunshine Coast Falcons
Toowoomba Clydesdales
Wynnum Seagulls

NRL1 South

Adelaide Rams
Central Coast
Cronulla Sharks
Kaiviti Silktails
Illawarra Steelers
Newtown Jets
North Coast
North Sydney Bears
Wellington Orcas
Western Sydney Magpies (Wests Tigers)

 

[Perth Red]

That market though, area that has no NRL club or significant local comp is pretty limited though.

Its a huge investment to fill such a small niche.

is it? Wellington, Christchurch, Gosford, NS, Newtown, Wentworth, Sunshine and central Qlnd coast etc etc, pretty reasonable populations. Throw in some options like wollongong and Macarthur, as wella s some of the QARL Brisbane clubs as well.
At the moment people arent really following state comps as they arent legit and mostly exist to be reserve grade for NRl. Is there room for a genuine second division that isnt a reserve grade system? not sure but we know we have a number of issues

1. Cities that dont have NRL clubs and probably never will
2. State comps that are kind of, kind of not a reserve grade
3. General acceptance that the loss of a youth NRL comp has been detrimental

Is a second division and NRL reserve grade the answer? Not sure but worth consideration, IF the NRL ever generates AFL level revenue.