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Organised crime and drugs in sport investigation part II

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Avenger

Immortal
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33,521
There's an important distinction between a POSSIBILITY and a PRESUMPTION.

Investigators come at the case from a POSSIBILITY of guilt - that the suspect COULD be guilty, not (as you claim) a presumption that they are guilty.

All Australian citizens via the constitution are presumed to be innocent until proven otherwise i.e. it is assumed to be true that based on all reasonable evidence to date that the person is innocent.

The burden of proof is therefore on the investigator to gather evidence to prove not just the charge but also to overcome all reasonable defenses.

Until that reasonable evidence is presented to overcome the burden then by logic, by legal context and by the very definition of the word itself - no - there is no presumption of guilt.

Sometimes you just know they are guilty but cannot prove it. I'm pretty sure OJ Simpson was guilty.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
Sometimes you just know they are guilty but cannot prove it.

Well put yourself in this scenario - you're accused of a crime that you didn't commit. You know you're innocent but there's people out there who keep saying that they "just know that you're guilty" even if they can't prove it.

Who knows why they think it? People develop all kinds of idiotic justifications. Some might think that because you're of a certain ethnic background that you must be a criminal. Others might think your eyes are too close together. Or perhaps they saw some dodgy report on A Current Affair that made you out to be a satanist pedophile lazy council worker. Did you run away from the cameras chasing you? Well apparently that'll just prove it more...

So how would you want to be treated? Like a guilty man or with the presumption of innocence?

There are a lot of people out there who "just know" insane things to be "true". Thankfully we've protected ourselves from them and their stupidity.
 

Avenger

Immortal
Messages
33,521
Well put yourself in this scenario - you're accused of a crime that you didn't commit. You know you're innocent but there's people out there who keep saying that they "just know that you're guilty" even if they can't prove it.

Who knows why they think it? People develop all kinds of idiotic justifications. Some might think that because you're of a certain ethnic background that you must be a criminal. Others might think your eyes are too close together. Or perhaps they saw some dodgy report on A Current Affair that made you out to be a satanist pedophile lazy council worker. Did you run away from the cameras chasing you? Well apparently that'll just prove it more...

So how would you want to be treated? Like a guilty man or with the presumption of innocence?

There are a lot of people out there who "just know" insane things to be "true". Thankfully we've protected ourselves from them and their stupidity.

I'm ok with the prosecution having the burden of proof and the presumption of innocence. All that rhetoric that you explained is inadmissible in court. You see based on your great system the juries are robots they just shut things out. They don't listen to the news and won't care what they just read in the paper or saw on ACA. They won't feel sorry for someone because they are from the same background as the offender. None of those people on the jury felt sorry for OJ. It's not like they were from the same background ? My god they were all black.

What I'm saying is that your system is flawed too. Judges can be stupid too. Sometimes no means yes, remember ?

I just want the guilty punished and the innocent protected. Just like you. Your system is probably the best fit for it. However it's also broken and corrupt to the hilt. Imagine we had a Royal Commission into the judicial system ? The findings would cause anarchy. That's why it won't happen.
 
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El Diablo

Post Whore
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94,107
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...nvestigators-come-calling-20130405-2hc99.html

Pressure goes on Cronulla as ASADA investigators come calling

Date
April 6, 2013

Brad Walter
Brad Walter
Chief Rugby League Writer

Cronulla players are expected to begin interviews with Australian Sport Anti-Doping Authority investigators next week after meeting with legal representatives on Thursday.

The Sharks players are understood to have been advised of formal interview requests from ASADA that were made through their legal counsel Richard Redman.

ASADA is likely to present evidence to the players, such as the record of interviews with witnesses at Australian Crime Commission hearings, phone taps, credit card receipts and data from Customs.

''ASADA usually talk first to the people they have got the strongest case against,'' a source said.

''They will have access to all the information gathered by the ACC and what the ASADA investigators will do is sit down with those people and their lawyers and say this is what we have got, we have got enough here for a two-year ban.

''But if you want to help us and be a witness there is an opportunity to potentially reduce it to six months. That will depend on whether they have any information that could help ASADA get other people.

''ASADA won't go to the people they haven't got much on, they will go to the people first who they think they have got a solid case against.''

Redman was appointed by the club to represent the players and after outlining their options at a meeting last month, which sparked fears up to 14 Sharks faced six-month bans, a number of them sought another opinion.

Fairfax Media has been told the players received the same legal advice as Redman provided and they are all being represented by him. Captain Paul Gallen said the players had not heard from ASADA or their lawyers for about two weeks until Thursday's meeting.

''Not a lot has changed for probably three or four weeks now, everyone has got lawyers now and they deal with everything and when we need to speak to them they give us a call and we meet up with them,'' Gallen told OneHD's The Game Plan.

''When this first broke, no one really thought anything of it because we didn't know anything about it but when the Sharks name got brought into it and we started to have a few meetings we got a bit worried.

''As far as the investigation goes we have all been told we will get interviewed at some stage but no player has been interviewed so far. Fortunately we have got some good support with our lawyers on board.''

ASADA leaking more bullshit to the media

amateurs
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
I'm ok with the prosecution having the burden of proof and the presumption of innocence. All that rhetoric that you explained is inadmissible in court. You see based on your great system the juries are robots they just shut things out. They don't listen to the news and won't care what they just read in the paper or saw on ACA. They won't feel sorry for someone because they are from the same background as the offender. None of those people on the jury felt sorry for OJ. It's not like they were from the same background ? My god they were all black.

What I'm saying is that your system is flawed too. Judges can be stupid too. Sometimes no means yes, remember ?

I just want the guilty punished and the innocent protected. Just like you. Your system is probably the best fit for it. However it's also broken and corrupt to the hilt. Imagine we had a Royal Commission into the judicial system ? The findings would cause anarchy. That's why it won't happen.

Never have more truer words been typed. They (judges etc) sit like deities judging the populace; but so many are corrupt or corrupted and that is only the start of the judical system (don't be surprised if a few legal names are tossed up at a recently commenced royal commission).

The saying; "The legal system is the cornerstone of our democarcy" - is a crock of shite.
 
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21,880
The thing for me is , I seriously doubt any player is going to give up info on any other player or official.

I doubt a player would care about an official , but naming anyone else could lead to other players being suspended.


If a player does that they may as well take a life ban. No one would want to play with them.
 
Messages
21,880
Never have more truer words been typed. They (judges etc) sit like deities judging the populace; but so many are corrupt or corrupted and that is only the start of the judical system (don't be surprised if a few legal names are tossed up at a recently commenced royal commission).

The saying; "The legal system is the cornerstone of our democarcy" - is a crock of shite.

The legal system is controlled and shaped by politicians. Who in turn are controlled by us.


I agree there are a lot of pathetic judges. But apathy on people's part is what lets them get away with it.
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
The legal system is controlled and shaped by politicians. Who in turn are controlled by us.


I agree there are a lot of pathetic judges. But apathy on people's part is what lets them get away with it.

Cant agree with that one - they are controlled by their parties, who are controlled by who knows who (but it is not the general populace, I can assure you.)
 
Messages
21,880
Cant agree with that one - they are controlled by their parties, who are controlled by who knows who (but it is not the general populace, I can assure you.)

The parties are just a reflection of us.

We let them get away with things. Then we only have ourselves to blame.


There is nothing stopping us from electing different representatives.
 
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3,070
Let me ask you a question and see if I get a serious answer.

Do you personally believe that some players were taking performance enhancing drugs?

Let me also ask you a question and see if I get a serious answer.

Do you personally believe that there is such a mechanism that WADA or ASADA controls & weilds that can identify persons who possess performance enhancing advantage over other players in our sport and if so, what is that specific mechanism ?
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
The saying; "The legal system is the cornerstone of our democarcy" - is a crock of shite.


No-one has mentioned that but you. I'm not sure that anyone other than you has ever put it in those terms.

Another line you made up just to argue against.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
I just want the guilty punished and the innocent protected. Just like you. Your system is probably the best fit for it. However it's also broken and corrupt to the hilt.

Nobody ever said it was perfect. People are inherently flawed and as a result so are the systems they create. The one we've got though is just the most workable so far.

I don't know if you've traveled overseas much to see what the alternatives are but it might make you reconsider how lucky you are to have this flawed system at all.

But apathy on people's part is what lets them get away with it.

:clap:
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/players-face-immediate-standdowns-20130407-2hf08.html

Players face immediate stand-downs

Date
April 8, 2013

Brad Walter
Chief Rugby League Writer

The NRL faces the prospect of players being stood down on a daily or weekly basis if the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority finds sufficient evidence to charge them with using performance-enhancing drugs.

With ASADA investigators due to begin interviewing up to 14 Cronulla players this week, there is the possibility that the first doping charges will be laid soon.

NRL chief executive Dave Smith recently announced that ASADA would interview 31 current NRL players and about 10 former players, many of who are thought to be playing in the English Super League competition.

Rather than wait until ASADA has interviewed all of the players to decide which ones face charges, Fairfax Media has been told that they will begin charging individuals as soon as they have enough evidence. By doing so, the process will move at a faster pace as anti-doping hearings may be able to take place while interviews with other players continue. While it is likely to ensure weeks of bad publicity for the code, that is inevitable if players are charged and dozens of hearings are required.

However, some clubs may have to endure the prospect of losing players on a gradual basis as they are stood down after being issued with infraction notices by the NRL.

Fairfax Media has been told that ASADA will interview the players it has the strongest cases against first, and if some players are charged quickly, it may encourage others to confess.

Under NRL anti-doping rules, players are required to submit for interviews and co-operate with the ASADA investigations or face suspension. The NRL has delegated the responsibility for investigating doping violations to ASADA, but conducts any drugs tribunal hearings that arise.

Once ASADA investigators believe they have enough evidence to charge a player, the case will be forwarded to the anti-doping rule-violation panel, comprising of lawyers, doctors and other experts, to decide whether to proceed.

If that occurs, ASADA puts the player on the register of findings and the NRL is advised to issue an infraction notice to the player.

The infraction notice will outline the mandatory penalty, which is usually two years under World Anti-Doping Agency guidelines if the player is found guilty, as well as other options available to him. Among them are a reduction of up to 75 per cent if he provides substantial assistance to help ASADA build a case against someone else.

The player, who can have a lawyer or other adviser - including his parents - at the interviews, will also have the option to challenge the decision to charge him through the Administrative Appeals Tribunal.

Cronulla coach Shane Flanagan said after Saturday night's 13-6 loss to Parramatta that the drugs investigation was beginning to take a toll on his team's preparation.

After meeting with their lawyers last Thursday, the players were told that formal interviews with ASADA investigators had been requested and Flanagan said the Sharks were being limited to one full training session a week.

''We are not preparing well enough because there is too much stuff going on off the field,'' he told ABC radio. ''One session or one-and-half sessions a week is OK, but these players are distracted and you can understand why. I can't give an answer or any clarification on when it is going to be cleared up.''
 

Patorick

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
8,992
The NRL faces the prospect of players being stood down on a daily or weekly basis if the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority finds sufficient evidence to charge them with using performance-enhancing drugs.
Well, duh.
 

Garbler

Juniors
Messages
286
How this whole affair is playing out really confirms my belief in:

Government - Useless to incompetent
AFL - Arrogant, propped up by government interference, an uncoordinated & sloppy sport followed by brainwashed zealots who take comfort in their myths of Australia's game & it somehow being less misogynistic than Rugby counterparts.

We will have to wait n see if Essendon eventually get the same treatment as Cronulla but at the moment sure is looking one sided.
 

bottle

Coach
Messages
14,126
Sweet, notch another one up to the conspiracy theorists and those confusing regulatory bodies with governance.
 

Diesel

Referee
Messages
23,336
The more I think about the strategic plans put into place by the NRL the more i think shit is going to hit the fan and a lot of the 31 people interviewed will have an extended break.

The one thing that shits me is why the AFL aren't getting the same treatment that the NRL is? Do the AFL believe they are innocent or just putting their heads in the sand and believing this is t happening abc hoping their Labor mates hold them out til election time and LNP scale back ASADA funding?
 
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