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Ot. Hallelujah and praise the lord

Messages
15,470
All those kids protesting down the street after being brain washed by their teachers and parents must be on suicide watch now.

Fancy using kids in politics and f**king their minds up thinking the sky is going to fall.

Plenty of visits to shrinks this year I think.
 

wibble

Bench
Messages
4,661
Correct ,but at least it's out there. I'm still awaiting the hidden costs of the you beaut emissions policy ,that was apparently hidden or in the too hard basket.
If some "expert "can claim it cost X amount on estimates ,and Shorten call sit BS.Then show that it's BS with fiigures. Then he might have got more votes.

Absolutely.

It may be tricky to precisely pinpoint costs from inaction (like, what are the costs of not having a fire fighting service?), and I suppose that may have been Shorten's issue with arguing figures, but the figures that were used that he didn't like must have had ranges and probabilities and estimates used in them.

It was his job to compare the costs of action vs inaction on climate change, even if the figures on inaction had to by necessity be more and more speculative further and further into the future.

He needed to present a case for change to ingrained habits that affect a powerful industry, and he didn't.

(Us actual leftists (not Labor voters) could argue a conspiracy theory here that Shorten's inadequacy was perfect for the mining companies that pay both political parties so much...though it is far more likely that he and his team were just not competent enough)
 

wibble

Bench
Messages
4,661
I find it very amusing that you worry about in the past children were locked up with their parents under a Liberal Government. But all the drownings at sea under a Labor government was not as bad. You think that is the best way for immigration to work and people smugglers should be getting a cut?

You lefties make me laugh.

I believe in an orderly immigration policy not queue jumpers who go from Country to country until they can get to Australia.

How do we know the boats have stopped?

If they weren’t I’m sure the detention centres would be packed yeah?

The figures given to us, on detentions, turn backs (yes, these can cause drownings too, in some cases our government has paid people smugglers to return boats) take backs, and drownings are entirely at the whim of the minister, who is trying to make himself look good. There is no objective data.

What we do know is that drownings and refugees in boats in the South East Asia region have been soaring since 2013 (much of which has been blamed on the massacres in Myanmar).

We’ve gone from 200 deaths per annum to 0, and you want to go back? Beg to differ.

We are just talking in circles now.

Q) How do we know the figures the Government gives us, on how good they are going, that they keep secure and away from security, are accurate?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths.

Q) How do we know the policy is effective? Are there really fewer people dying due to the policy?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths

Q) Locking up children should be a last resort (the UN has been scathing of Australia in that regard, saying to us it has been a first resort). What other policies could we try?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths

Q) Even if the policy is working, is it one we should pursue as a matter of principle? Should we lock children up to prevent other parents doing dangerous things?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths

Q) If the policy works, by the same argument shouldn't we lock up children of parents who do dangerous things in other situations, like speeding in cars?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths

Q) Is the argument really about people smugglers and drownings anyway? If we raise ethical issues about using deterrents, people then jump to queue jumping and orderly immigration as the reasons, avoiding the questions.

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths. And people shouldn't queue jump.

Obviously it would at this point be silly to try to make any more nuanced arguments, like comparing the risks of people at sea (who must know about those risks at least as much as they know about detention as a deterrent) to the risks they face if they don't smuggle themselves from their homes on a leaky boat. The counter point would clearly be "0 boats, 0 deaths".

I get that there are always political divides, and the left/right divide seems as big as ever now.

I just never thought I'd see the day when locking up children, for months and years, in conditions that would see them suicidal, without some serious analysis of the situation, would ever be thought to be OK. The fact that pointing this out makes people "laugh" or call out "virtue signalling" shows that the divide in political thought is seemingly insurmountable.

Difficult then, as the task may be, that is where the really progressive left (not Labor or Shorten) has been doing a terrible job, of selling the stories and lives affected by cruel policy, simplistic solutions, and xenophobia.
 

SadShark

Bench
Messages
4,049
All those kids protesting down the street after being brain washed by their teachers and parents must be on suicide watch now.

Fancy using kids in politics and f**king their minds up thinking the sky is going to fall.

Plenty of visits to shrinks this year I think.
This.

How the f**ken hell is Australia’s contribution to world pollution an election winning tactic? We are less than 1% of the worlds total emissions. How the hell can we change India & China, the two worst contributors to pollution?

“Solar panels, wind turbines & lithium batteries” I hear the lefties squeal. “We need to ban mining” they squeal louder.

Oh, really? Mines dig the silica to make the solar panel cells and bauxite is mined to make the aluminium frames and fixtures for the panels. Copper is mined for the cables. Lithium is mined for the batteries and f**ken iron ore is mined to help make the steel for the windmills you f**ken dumb leftie kaaarnts.

FMD, spare me.
 

wibble

Bench
Messages
4,661
This.

How the f**ken hell is Australia’s contribution to world pollution an election winning tactic? We are less than 1% of the worlds total emissions. How the hell can we change India & China, the two worst contributors to pollution?

“Solar panels, wind turbines & lithium batteries” I hear the lefties squeal. “We need to ban mining” they squeal louder.

Oh, really? Mines dig the silica to make the solar panel cells and bauxite is mined to make the aluminium frames and fixtures for the panels. Copper is mined for the cables. Lithium is mined for the batteries and f**ken iron ore is mined to help make the steel for the windmills you f**ken dumb leftie kaaarnts.

FMD, spare me.

Most "green" sources of energy rely heavily on manufacturing processes that use petroleum as a main ingredient (as a core ingredient of plastic).

Most manufacturing of energy collecting infrastructure uses smelting and mining processes that cause greenhouse gas emissions.

I'm not aware of anyone calling for a ban on all mining, but if they are, they will be sending us back to the middle ages (though hopefully not with the "conservative" values that were trendy at the time, as those would have us all executed as heretical radicals).

Of course, at some point we will likely run out of these non-renewables (hence the term, non-renewable- though alternatives may be found), and if we haven't figured out how to work with what we have, we will be sending ourselves back to the middle ages.

It is true that China and India are the world's biggest polluters, and trivially easy to see why. It is a strange argument to say that we should therefore not care about what we do.

Australia is no doubt a small contributor to world wide drug crime, but that would be a poor reason to not care about drug crime in (and to and from) our borders.

I'm not aware of teachers brain washing kids to protest in the streets and feel suicidal about the sky falling in. Plenty of teachers I know are conservatives (which makes little sense to me, but then if I'm feeling less generous I'd say I don't know why anyone would be ignorant or selfish enough to be conservative, except that they've had it beaten/brainwashed/prayed into them. It would be a bit fairer to say that trends show that people in public service, women, and the educated are more likely to be progressive, though these are very weak correlations, and teachers are also weakly correlated with those things).

I agree that decrying the tragedy of the commons is not (or has not been) a very effective election strategy to date. Hopefully someone will work a way around that while we still have a commons to be upset about.
 

Eion

First Grade
Messages
7,991
The figures given to us, on detentions, turn backs (yes, these can cause drownings too, in some cases our government has paid people smugglers to return boats) take backs, and drownings are entirely at the whim of the minister, who is trying to make himself look good. There is no objective data.

What we do know is that drownings and refugees in boats in the South East Asia region have been soaring since 2013 (much of which has been blamed on the massacres in Myanmar).



We are just talking in circles now.

Q) How do we know the figures the Government gives us, on how good they are going, that they keep secure and away from security, are accurate?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths.

Q) How do we know the policy is effective? Are there really fewer people dying due to the policy?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths

Q) Locking up children should be a last resort (the UN has been scathing of Australia in that regard, saying to us it has been a first resort). What other policies could we try?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths

Q) Even if the policy is working, is it one we should pursue as a matter of principle? Should we lock children up to prevent other parents doing dangerous things?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths

Q) If the policy works, by the same argument shouldn't we lock up children of parents who do dangerous things in other situations, like speeding in cars?

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths

Q) Is the argument really about people smugglers and drownings anyway? If we raise ethical issues about using deterrents, people then jump to queue jumping and orderly immigration as the reasons, avoiding the questions.

A) 0 boats, 0 deaths. And people shouldn't queue jump.

Obviously it would at this point be silly to try to make any more nuanced arguments, like comparing the risks of people at sea (who must know about those risks at least as much as they know about detention as a deterrent) to the risks they face if they don't smuggle themselves from their homes on a leaky boat. The counter point would clearly be "0 boats, 0 deaths".

I get that there are always political divides, and the left/right divide seems as big as ever now.

I just never thought I'd see the day when locking up children, for months and years, in conditions that would see them suicidal, without some serious analysis of the situation, would ever be thought to be OK. The fact that pointing this out makes people "laugh" or call out "virtue signalling" shows that the divide in political thought is seemingly insurmountable.

Difficult then, as the task may be, that is where the really progressive left (not Labor or Shorten) has been doing a terrible job, of selling the stories and lives affected by cruel policy, simplistic solutions, and xenophobia.
This is exactly why the ultra left will always be marginal.

Im yet to see a workable solution and instead you prefer to label anyone with a differing view vile things like xenophobic or cruel.

But the good news is you don’t need a solution because the facts show the mainstream political solution works...and not just government facts. Do you think if there was any shadow of a doubt that the greens wouldn’t be trumpeting the failure from every rooftop (and rightly so). They aren’t because they can’t.

The stories you want can’t come from 0 deaths and 0 kids in detention.
 
Messages
15,470
This.

How the f**ken hell is Australia’s contribution to world pollution an election winning tactic? We are less than 1% of the worlds total emissions. How the hell can we change India & China, the two worst contributors to pollution?

“Solar panels, wind turbines & lithium batteries” I hear the lefties squeal. “We need to ban mining” they squeal louder.

Oh, really? Mines dig the silica to make the solar panel cells and bauxite is mined to make the aluminium frames and fixtures for the panels. Copper is mined for the cables. Lithium is mined for the batteries and f**ken iron ore is mined to help make the steel for the windmills you f**ken dumb leftie kaaarnts.

FMD, spare me.

So much commonsense in this post.

And this is the problem. None of the greenies, radical left makes sense. You cannot join the dots to their thoughts and policies because you get to dead ends not other connections.

Greenies would love Australia to be a permanent dead end. I feel it’s not just about their loopy environment & climate policies it’s about stopping progress, it’s about having a communist view on being jealous at anyone prospering and working hard.

Until Labor cuts the cord with them and gets more Centre with their thoughts and policies they’ll be a long time in opposition.
 

Card Shark

Immortal
Messages
32,237
This.

How the f**ken hell is Australia’s contribution to world pollution an election winning tactic? We are less than 1% of the worlds total emissions. How the hell can we change India & China, the two worst contributors to pollution?

“Solar panels, wind turbines & lithium batteries” I hear the lefties squeal. “We need to ban mining” they squeal louder.

Oh, really? Mines dig the silica to make the solar panel cells and bauxite is mined to make the aluminium frames and fixtures for the panels. Copper is mined for the cables. Lithium is mined for the batteries and f**ken iron ore is mined to help make the steel for the windmills you f**ken dumb leftie kaaarnts.

FMD, spare me.

Well said uncle!
 

txta2

First Grade
Messages
5,175
Like things would change for me.

Does not matter Labor/Liberal, very similar and neither make a difference to my day to day life.
I'm in the same boat,BUT I do not approve of the no policy this country has towards my bloody power bills. I also do not approve of cutting people's penalty rates. Meanwhile people receiving over a 100k a year will be paying 30 per cent tax.What happened to a fair go for ALL Australians
 

Eion

First Grade
Messages
7,991
I'm in the same boat,BUT I do not approve of the no policy this country has towards my bloody power bills. I also do not approve of cutting people's penalty rates. Meanwhile people receiving over a 100k a year will be paying 30 per cent tax.What happened to a fair go for ALL Australians
The fairest go would be to cut income tax rates further and jack up GST. Sure, make some concessions on necessities and pensions, but a fundamental tax on spend is the way to go.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
I blame Simon O'Brien and his Campaign Director.

Bugger that I blame Ben Pomeroy.
He's come back to haunt us.

Also heard lithium used in batteries for electric cars is expensive to mine,the batteries expensive to buy, and expensive to dispose of. Gimmee oxygen anyway Quigs.
 
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M2D2

Bench
Messages
4,693
On Sunday i was in the bay over from where Sco Mo was sitting, i was sitting surrounded with dickheads chanting his name.
Im not surprised one bit those people are also in this forum.
 
Messages
15,470
On Sunday i was in the bay over from where Sco Mo was sitting, i was sitting surrounded with dickheads chanting his name.
Im not surprised one bit those people are also in this forum.

It’s easy to pick you as a whinging lefty.

You can sit in the corner with the rest of the minority.
 
Messages
15,470
Easy to pick you as a brain dead and decrepit moron. Enjoy your win.

Want a tissue?

You lefties were very bitter on Twitter.

Hope you are all getting help seems you are all not handling the result very well.

Poor Whaleed Aly was predicting 81 seats to Labor. Bahahahaha!!!
 

wibble

Bench
Messages
4,661
The fairest go would be to cut income tax rates further and jack up GST. Sure, make some concessions on necessities and pensions, but a fundamental tax on spend is the way to go.

Although at its base it is a regressive tax, the GST, and sales taxes in general, are often both a good way to raise tax, and a good way to prevent tax avoidance. Their main issues are to do with managing the taxes as a business owner, but Australian businesses have coped well with the GST and as long as we don't try to complicate it too much, raising it and lowering income tax is a good idea.

It doesn't make much sense to tax people on, say, $30 k a year a little bit, give a bit of that back in social security, and take only a bit in sales tax. Just reduce the first few brackets to virtually zero (which helps everyone) and raise the GST, and no one is worse off, and tax is more reliable and easier to manage for most people.
 

wibble

Bench
Messages
4,661
So much commonsense in this post.

And this is the problem. None of the greenies, radical left makes sense. You cannot join the dots to their thoughts and policies because you get to dead ends not other connections.

Greenies would love Australia to be a permanent dead end. I feel it’s not just about their loopy environment & climate policies it’s about stopping progress, it’s about having a communist view on being jealous at anyone prospering and working hard.

Until Labor cuts the cord with them and gets more Centre with their thoughts and policies they’ll be a long time in opposition.

Well, if we continue to generalise across whole voting patterns, the conservative position is fundamentally flawed.

The main way this can be seen is by recognising that "conservatives" in Australia ARE the radical left, compared to most people in most places for most of history.

We are all very radical. Proposing such radical ideas as everyone (mentally fit, not incarcerated adult citizens, anyway) getting a vote, education provided by a government, the general populace being able to read, people of mixed races being able to marry (or live here), and especially voting for a government, would have had you killed in a most unpleasant way, in many societies.

So humanity has progressed a lot over the 80 000 or so years it has existed, and thankfully Australia is one of a few countries right at the forefront of that progress (though sadly not at the very front).

If you'd proposed 80 years ago that women should be able to work after being married, many would have thought your ideas were dead ends without connections. Let alone women being doctors, lawyers or engineers.

I just find it interesting, that over about 80 000 years of political progress (give or a few tens of thousands of years, depending on latest archaeological and biological anthropological evidence), the era your mum and dad raised you is the pinnacle of human progress, and no more progress needs to be made.

Go back 50 years, everyone is too conservative for most current conservatives. Go back 100 years and we are scarily conservative (though 100 years ago was way too radical for 1000 years ago). But right now, the progressives are so scary. Their ideas are sure to end life as we know it, as KAK would say (and us lefties are accused of fearing the falling skies...).

So 20 years ago is the magic spot (maybe 10 years ago for a slightly more moderate conservative, maybe 30 years ago for Abbott). No bias there. Nothing to do with you clinging to your upbringing. It just magically happens that your childhood/young adulthood was the perfect level of political progress, out of the 80000 years of progress, so now anything more radical than that makes no sense, and would lead to a permanent dead end/end of life as we know it.

Labor, incidentally, has always been a long time in opposition. Moderately conservative parties have ruled here, and in most democracies, for most of the periods that democracy has been a thing. A party may be more popular if it becomes more "moderate" (to me Labor are already pretty moderate) but that would defeat the point of being a more radical party. The most generous thing I can say about conservative politics is that it acts as a sort of lubricant to smooth the spaces between periods of progress that all democracies experience.

People don't like change, even when it is good, and often need to adjust to change before they are ready for more. I wish that wasn't the case, and people would be more ready to challenge their assumptions and traditions with a critical eye, so we could progress more rapidly. But history has shown that democracies do progress, thanks to the "loony lefties", in short bursts, and then things settle for a while under conservative rule, until people are ready to make progress again.
 
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