OT - In these weird times

[Juju]

I honestly struggle to see how their business is affected by the pandemic.

they are basically a lobby group who rely’s on private donations from whatever companies interest they are pushing.

I’m pretty f**king sure they can work from home.

In all honesty i think the govt should be taking a long hard look at them and whether they have provided false information to get this funding.

i just can’t see how you can make the argument that their business has dropped 30% due to the pandemic.

From what had been reported for the past year they were going broke as companies had stopped funding them.

bunch of hypocrite crooks if you ask me...

Basically every facet of Destinies Church applied and were granted it too...

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Basically every facet of Destinies Church applied and were granted it too...

unfortunately the government has set the rules and if a business is structured in a way it can prove its eligibility they should be paid, whether or not we like them.

 

[shiznit]

Basically every facet of Destinies Church applied and were granted it too...

I don’t support the Destiny Church... they shouldn’t be allowed anything either...

but atleast Destiny Church actually run social services like prisoner education and domestic violence counselling courses...

What the f**k do the tax payers union do??

 

[SpaceMonkey]

What really grinds my gears is they’re getting government help while the girls at the local gentleman’s club probably aren’t...

 

[Meth]

unfortunately the government has set the rules and if a business is structured in a way it can prove its eligibility they should be paid, whether or not we like them.

I wouldn't say this is unfortunate. Whatever you think of Destiny, if they have employees (and I am referring to the rank and file), those employees need to put food on the family table and if their employer experiences a downturn, then I don't want my opinion (mostly of their boss) to interfere with that. The money can always be reclaimed with an audit down the track.

 

[Rich102]

Depends if Destiny is a church or business.
Seems it is firmly in the latter category.
Do they pay tax on their earnings?

 

[TheDMC]

What really grinds my gears is they’re getting government help while the girls at the local gentleman’s club probably aren’t...

Hook me up Space, I'll provide them some income...

 

[Meth]

Depends if Destiny is a church or business.
Seems it is firmly in the latter category.
Do they pay tax on their earnings?

Well, they'd be both, in a sense, as all churches are. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily, providing that they are complying with the law.

I'd imagine they pay tax on any commercial activity such as coffee sales, books, property, school fees (I am speculating as I don't know what commercial activity they are engaged in). They wouldn't pay tax on donations made to them and nor should they, providing they fairly meet the criteria of a charity.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Amd all of the above applies to the TPU as well. They’re an employer, and if the can prove a loss of revenue they qualify. We can’t really get into whether they’re “worthy” or not.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

The churches are a f**king rort, always have been always will be. They enjoy an incredibly free run in terms of taxes and no government is going to touch it with a 10 foot pole and jeopardize hundreds of thousands in lost voters.

Same as Sanitarium. Owned by the 7th Day Adventist Church and pays SFA in taxes as a result.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10816412

Horse shit.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

The churches are a f**king rort, always have been always will be. They enjoy an incredibly free run in terms of taxes and no government is going to touch it with a 10 foot pole and jeopardize hundreds of thousands in lost voters.

Same as Sanitarium. Owned by the 7th Day Adventist Church and pays SFA in taxes as a result.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10816412

Horse shit.

All true. Sanitarium are swimming in cash too, in Sydney they’ve practically got their own mini suburb with a hospital, schools, media business and other SDA related entities all set up there.
Still, as I be said it’s not really relevant to the COVID-19 situation, we can’t start picking and choosing which employers to give assistance to under the rules. It’s definitely something that should be the subject of tax reform though.

 

[Meth]

The churches are a f**king rort, always have been always will be. They enjoy an incredibly free run in terms of taxes and no government is going to touch it with a 10 foot pole and jeopardize hundreds of thousands in lost voters.

Same as Sanitarium. Owned by the 7th Day Adventist Church and pays SFA in taxes as a result.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10816412

Horse shit.

Hmmm

I agree with Sanitarium, as they are quite obviously selling a product for profit, regardless of what they wish to then spend that profit on. Not with you on churches though. Not necessarily. Of course, a church like Destiny is an easy target- and perhaps a fair one. (Like I said, IDK enough about their operation. On the one hand, I’ve seen reference made to genuinely good work that they do. On the other hand, they’ve got a leader that is paid (by all reports) an excessive amount)

Nevertheless, I think it unwise to tar all churches with that brush. I grew up in a family that was a recipient of no-strings-attached assistance from a church, so that’ll always colour my view.

In any event, I think it makes sense that churches are only taxed for enterprise. They are comprised of people who have paid their taxes already.

 

[Matua]

I think that there should be a clear definition between church and a charity run by a church (I'm saying I would prefer if this was the law). I don't believe any church is a charity, but I do not have an issue with a church setting up charities but they must be kept separate from the church. If they proselytise in any minimum tiny way shape or form then they should lose their charitable status.

Does anyone know whether tithes are considered charitable donations?

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I think that there should be a clear definition between church and a charity run by a church (I'm saying I would prefer if this was the law). I don't believe any church is a charity, but I do not have an issue with a church setting up charities but they must be kept separate from the church. If they proselytise in any minimum tiny way shape or form then they should lose their charitable status.

Does anyone know whether tithes are considered charitable donations?

tithes are considered charitable donations as far as I’m aware. You’ve touched on part of the problem- the provision of religious ministry is in itself considered a charitable activity. So anything the cup hutch does to support that (building churches, pay8n pastors wages etc etc) falls under the charible tax exemption. The definition needs to be narrower.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

All true. Sanitarium are swimming in cash too, in Sydney they’ve practically got their own mini suburb with a hospital, schools, media business and other SDA related entities all set up there.
Still, as I be said it’s not really relevant to the COVID-19 situation, we can’t start picking and choosing which employers to give assistance to under the rules. It’s definitely something that should be the subject of tax reform though.

Oh no, I wasn't relating it to the current situation. Or I wasn't meaning to.

Hmmm

I agree with Sanitarium, as they are quite obviously selling a product for profit, regardless of what they wish to then spend that profit on. Not with you on churches though. Not necessarily. Of course, a church like Destiny is an easy target- and perhaps a fair one. (Like I said, IDK enough about their operation. On the one hand, I’ve seen reference made to genuinely good work that they do. On the other hand, they’ve got a leader that is paid (by all reports) an excessive amount)

Nevertheless, I think it unwise to tar all churches with that brush. I grew up in a family that was a recipient of no-strings-attached assistance from a church, so that’ll always colour my view.

In any event, I think it makes sense that churches are only taxed for enterprise. They are comprised of people who have paid their taxes already.

In all fairness I know SFA about churches and the work they do. It's not a topic I should weigh in on. I do know the Sanitarium (and Gloria Jeans) situation is a nonsense, but that's a fairly isolated case.

 

[Meth]

Who reckons we are ready for Level 3 in NZ?

 

[Penrose Warrior]

It’s basically level 3.9 right? It’s a step down to allow business to resume and kick start the economy again. I have no reason to believe it couldn’t have been like this the whole time, at least in terms of businesses allowed to operate. Different story for schools, general socialising etc

Think about supermarkets have operated. There’s been a trust and an onus on people to use it safely and sensibly. No reason to not apply that to any business that could operate under the general safety measures.

I’m not being critical of the govt either. This is an unprecedented pandemic (in our life time) and there’s a very understandable want to go too hard with policy rather than go too soft and potentially cost lives. Unfortunately the human cost has been particularly in small business, a lot of whom probably could have survived in some way under the level 3 restriction procedures

 

[JJ]

It’s basically level 3.9 right? It’s a step down to allow business to resume and kick start the economy again. I have no reason to believe it couldn’t have been like this the whole time, at least in terms of businesses allowed to operate. Different story for schools, general socialising etc

Think about supermarkets have operated. There’s been a trust and an onus on people to use it safely and sensibly. No reason to not apply that to any business that could operate under the general safety measures.

I’m not being critical of the govt either. This is an unprecedented pandemic (in our life time) and there’s a very understandable want to go too hard with policy rather than go too soft and potentially cost lives. Unfortunately the human cost has been particularly in small business, a lot of whom probably could have survived in some way under the level 3 restriction procedures

That’s it... and if things don’t change the health cost in non communicable diseases will be astronomical

 

[Rich102]

Trouble, as I see it, is that the more businesses/shops are open the more people are out and about. Lockdown is about staying home.

 

[JJ]

Trouble, as I see it, is that the more businesses/shops are open the more people are out and about. Lockdown is about staying home.

Yep

But being human is about being out and about...