Paul Kent: NRL salary cap isn't working

[betcats]

The previous government tried to enable a proper set up to help addicts stop themselves, the industry fought tooth and nail because they rely on addicts to keep themselves in profit.

I dont care about gambling addicts.

 

[betcats]

There is nothing to stop Penrith signing the players concerned. If they don't want to pay them then that is their fault, no one else's. Junior league players are not in bondage to the parent club which is what you are alluding to, whether you realise it or not.

What i am alluding to which you cant seem to grasp is its not fair that some clubs benefit from not spending any money on junior league.

 

[Captain Apollo]

What i am alluding to which you cant seem to grasp is its not fair that some clubs benefit from not spending any money on junior league.

I could turn it back on you then. How fair is it that some teams have a way bigger geographical area for their junior leagues than others?

It is an advantage for your club, but mine. Gee lots of prospective players wanting to play league in the 4-5 suburbs in our junior league boundaries in the eastern suburbs eh?

Further you seem to equate spending by NRL clubs on junior leagues as player development, which is somewhat dis-ingenious. I don't know any junior league coach who gets paid at all, and they are the ones who do the initial development of players.

However let's look at the often called for "salaryt cap discounts for juniors" which gets brought up. How would you define a junior? For example, have a look at the Parramatta fans who want to say Jamie Lyon is a Parramatta junior evcenm though he played most of his junior football in Wee Waa. It was only in his last 2 years of high school he signed a scholarship for Parramatta, went to high school at Parramatta Marist that saw him play junior league football in Parramatta, would he qualify? I use him as a famous example but it is the first problem.

Then if you give salary cap discounts for them, it means that whilst you may be under the salary cap due to the discounts, you are actually paying out more money than the salary cap. As the NRL grant covers all clubs salary cap commitments who pays this additional money? Where does it come from?

If it is to be paid by the NRL club from within its own resources, long term you are looking at potential financial issues for those clubs. I mean look at the financial situation the Panthers group were described as being in by Phil Gould on Sterlo yesterday. Look at the financial issues the Knights have had. You cannot guarantee those issues may not re-occur.

If it is to be by the NRL, you are then making it an uneven competition. You are giving teams an inbuilt financial advantage on top of an advantage which may be more because of circumstance of geography.

Yes the issue of junior development is an issue. Maybe we need to look at structures all over rugby league.

 

[Pete Cash]

See, I don't mind clubs identifying talented juniors and developing them. Look at the raiders and say papalii he is a product of the raiders and any discount for juniors should apply to him.

The reason why I like the idea of discounts is because it would help the raiders who I support. So I'm certainly biased but the raiders aggression and geographical circumstance in one area is no difference to the roosters aggression and geographical circumstance with TPA. So what's the difference. It gives the small market sides a chance.

 

[Perth Red]

Better the nrl funded u16's, u18's and u20's. Then you could have a draft at u20 without gould whinging.

 

[Renowned League Expert]

That Crawley article in yesterday's Telegraph was in very poor taste. It was a very obvious attempt to unsettle the Roosters by accusing them of cheating, before their match with Canberra. Crawley's brother is on the Raiders' coaching staff and he should have disclosed that information at the bottom of the article.

Very poor form on Crawley's part and I'd love to see him sacked over it.

 

[Edwahu]

Yeah, that will sure hit the Roosters players hard. Better get on the Raiders for the win.

Personally I don't think the Roosters are cheating, because there is no need anymore. It's the NRL which creates the system where some clubs have rosters earning millions more then others legally, and then promotes that that system is fair and balanced.

 

[taste2taste]

Why don't they use a point system

Each team has 30pnts a gun player like Inglis is worth 5 pnts, a young player who is brought the club is 1pnt..
Etc etc

 

[oikee]

Why don't they use a point system

Each team has 30pnts a gun player like Inglis is worth 5 pnts, a young player who is brought the club is 1pnt..
Etc etc

That is too easy. The NRL and the managers would want to complicate it to a stage where nobody could understand the system and every club could rort the rules.

Good idea, but you would have to make the points system 1-20.

A superstar should be on 15 points or more.
A junior superstar would be no higher than 10. ]
The point is you can keep track of where your team is headed, and who you might have to offload or buy.
Great idea, too simple so the NRL wont introduce it,.

 

[Talanexor]

The salary cap is working well. Manly has been dominant for a very long time and something had to give eventually.

The Melbourne storm were the other dominant team of the noughties. Even though they got done for cheating the cap, it's a testament to the skill of their coaching and recruitment staff that they were able to constantly turn no-frills nuffies into acceptable firstgraders. Just look at how many ex-storm players have been total disappointments as soon as they left the storm system.

The problem with the salary cap as it stands is that it does not give teams enough of an incentive to develop their own juniors.

Regional teams punch way above their weight in terms of junior development...only to watch those players they spent years developing get lured away to Sydney or Brisbane as soon as they start to show promise.

The reality is that Sydney and Brisbane teams (and Melbourne and the Gold Coast, to a lesser extent) have a massive advantage as far as recruitment is concerned because:

1) They are able to offer a big-city, cosmopolitan lifestyle that regional teams cannot
2) They are able to offer larger TPA outside the cap, because there is a larger market and thus sponsors are willing to pay more.

I don't think it's acceptable that teams like the Sea Eagles, Roosters and Bulldogs are able to just buy all their players, spend very little on junior development, and still be extremely competitive. At least Souths still develop their own juniors.

Also, for the game to grow we need to have teams in every major market. More teams = more players needed. If we focused on developing juniors NOW, so we had enough quality players for expansion teams to be competitive, we could grow the game in 5-10 years time.

Here's what I would do:

1) Allow a salary cap concession for long time players (6 or more years). The twist? Junior years also count. That way if a club develops a player from the age of 16, by the time they start having an impact in first grade at 22-23 the club is able to compete with other club offers.

2) Impose a 10% player transfer fee whenever another club signs talent that your club developed. This doesn't count against the salary cap though, otherwise it would disadvantage a lot of clubs. Rather, the point of this is to help financially-struggling clubs that develop juniors (Newcastle, Penrith, Cronulla) generate enough revenue to allow them to spend the full salary cap. In this way, we would also be able to keep raising the salary cap more aggressively, because clubs would be able to afford it.

3) Once a player is sacked from a club for bringing the game into disrepute they should be banned from playing for ANY NRL club for 5 years. And then when they come back, the 10% player transfer fee still applies. It's unacceptable that clubs like Canberra develop talented players like Carney and Dugan, sack them when they do something stupid, and the next week a Sydney club picks them up on the cheap.

4) Similarly, if a player quits to join a rival code, they should be banned from playing for ANY NRL club for 5 years. It's also laughable that Sonny Bill Williams can quit the Bulldogs, play Union, then come back and help the Roosters to a premiership without ANY compensation being given to the Bulldogs.

5) Offer a 10% salary cap concession (E.g. $5.5m instead of $5m) to expansion clubs for their first 10 years, and a 5% salary cap concession for the next 10 years. New clubs need to spend more to attract players, and it takes time to develop their own junior nursery. If they can't build a supporter base and a junior nursery in 20 years, they deserve to fail.

Bring in these changes and here's what we'll see:

- Teams like the Roosters, Sea Eagles and Bulldogs will be forced to invest in junior development or face major problems in attracting and retaining players.

- A more level playing field allowing regional teams to better compete with Big City rivals, even though the same TPA opportunities don't exist in regional areas.

- Clubs that are struggling financially get a new major revenue stream, which means that we can increase the salary cap

- There is more junior talent available. Even if it goes to union or esl in the short term, it will mean that when we bring in expansion teams, we can do so without the quality of the competition taking a massive hit.

 

[alien]

tpa's shouldn't be outside of the cap.

 

[Captain Apollo]

The salary cap is working well. Manly has been dominant for a very long time and something had to give eventually.

The Melbourne storm were the other dominant team of the noughties. Even though they got done for cheating the cap, it's a testament to the skill of their coaching and recruitment staff that they were able to constantly turn no-frills nuffies into acceptable firstgraders. Just look at how many ex-storm players have been total disappointments as soon as they left the storm system.

The problem with the salary cap as it stands is that it does not give teams enough of an incentive to develop their own juniors.

Regional teams punch way above their weight in terms of junior development...only to watch those players they spent years developing get lured away to Sydney or Brisbane as soon as they start to show promise.

The reality is that Sydney and Brisbane teams (and Melbourne and the Gold Coast, to a lesser extent) have a massive advantage as far as recruitment is concerned because:

1) They are able to offer a big-city, cosmopolitan lifestyle that regional teams cannot
2) They are able to offer larger TPA outside the cap, because there is a larger market and thus sponsors are willing to pay more.

I don't think it's acceptable that teams like the Sea Eagles, Roosters and Bulldogs are able to just buy all their players, spend very little on junior development, and still be extremely competitive. At least Souths still develop their own juniors.

Also, for the game to grow we need to have teams in every major market. More teams = more players needed. If we focused on developing juniors NOW, so we had enough quality players for expansion teams to be competitive, we could grow the game in 5-10 years time.

Here's what I would do:

1) Allow a salary cap concession for long time players (6 or more years). The twist? Junior years also count. That way if a club develops a player from the age of 16, by the time they start having an impact in first grade at 22-23 the club is able to compete with other club offers.

2) Impose a 10% player transfer fee whenever another club signs talent that your club developed. This doesn't count against the salary cap though, otherwise it would disadvantage a lot of clubs. Rather, the point of this is to help financially-struggling clubs that develop juniors (Newcastle, Penrith, Cronulla) generate enough revenue to allow them to spend the full salary cap. In this way, we would also be able to keep raising the salary cap more aggressively, because clubs would be able to afford it.

3) Once a player is sacked from a club for bringing the game into disrepute they should be banned from playing for ANY NRL club for 5 years. And then when they come back, the 10% player transfer fee still applies. It's unacceptable that clubs like Canberra develop talented players like Carney and Dugan, sack them when they do something stupid, and the next week a Sydney club picks them up on the cheap.

4) Similarly, if a player quits to join a rival code, they should be banned from playing for ANY NRL club for 5 years. It's also laughable that Sonny Bill Williams can quit the Bulldogs, play Union, then come back and help the Roosters to a premiership without ANY compensation being given to the Bulldogs.

5) Offer a 10% salary cap concession (E.g. $5.5m instead of $5m) to expansion clubs for their first 10 years, and a 5% salary cap concession for the next 10 years. New clubs need to spend more to attract players, and it takes time to develop their own junior nursery. If they can't build a supporter base and a junior nursery in 20 years, they deserve to fail.

Bring in these changes and here's what we'll see:

- Teams like the Roosters, Sea Eagles and Bulldogs will be forced to invest in junior development or face major problems in attracting and retaining players.

- A more level playing field allowing regional teams to better compete with Big City rivals, even though the same TPA opportunities don't exist in regional areas.

- Clubs that are struggling financially get a new major revenue stream, which means that we can increase the salary cap

- There is more junior talent available. Even if it goes to union or esl in the short term, it will mean that when we bring in expansion teams, we can do so without the quality of the competition taking a massive hit.

So where do the Roosters, the team with the smallest junior league geographical boundaries get these juniors from hmmm? It is easy to say "develop some juniors" but tell me how many young families are there in places like Vaucluse (for example)?

Also, as I said earlier, with salary cap "discounts" where does the actual real money to pay the players come from. If due to discounts a team is paying (theoretically) $700,000 per annum above the salary cap (as that is how much their discounts add up to) where does that money come from? If it is form the clubs pockets, how does this not wind up putting them, long term, under financial stress?

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

So where do the Roosters, the team with the smallest junior league geographical boundaries get these juniors from hmmm? It is easy to say "develop some juniors" but tell me how many young families are there in places like Vaucluse (for example)?

Also, as I said earlier, with salary cap "discounts" where does the actual real money to pay the players come from. If due to discounts a team is paying (theoretically) $700,000 per annum above the salary cap (as that is how much their discounts add up to) where does that money come from? If it is form the clubs pockets, how does this not wind up putting them, long term, under financial stress?

The Central Coast. There is a reason the Roosters sought out the affiliation with the Central Coast, it is a plan to develop a junior area that was not aligned to an NRL club and also to mitigate against potential draft plans that could come into place for juniors.

 

[Danish]

I'd love to move to a points based system, because whenever people do lists ranking the top players in the NRL the Roosters never have anyone inside the top 10, and barely anyone inside the top 50. This despite the fact that when salary cap issues come up we're always picked on for having the "best" roster.


Switching to a points system would mean we could easily retain our current squad without an issue

 

[DiegoNT]

Ok this might sound crazy but what if we had no salary cap for players that debuted for their current club. Only have a salary cap for first graders brought from other clubs
That way clubs can more easily keep younger players they've developed themselves.

 

[Craig Johnston]

Ok this might sound crazy but what if we had no salary cap for players that debuted for their current club. Only have a salary cap for first graders brought from other clubs
That way clubs can more easily keep younger players they've developed themselves.

so essentially one team can pay 12mill and another can pay 6mill.

what's a salary cap for again?

 

[DiegoNT]

I thought the salary cap was brought in for 3 main reasons
1. To stop a rich team buying all the games best players and essentially buying a premiership
2. To spread the talent around
3. To stop the clubs over spending and sending themselves broke

Well with no salary cap for players debuted for their current clubs
1. If a team can spend all it wants on players developed themselves then they won't need to go out and buy a premiership
2. Spreading talent around is an artificial thing, it punishes clubs for being successful and it even punishes clubs like parra and raiders who develop so many good young players only to see them leave due to salary cap pressures
3. It's 2015 not the 80s, if clubs can't be trusted to look after themselves then they don't deserve to be in an elite competition like the nrl

 

[Craig Johnston]

I thought the salary cap was brought in for 3 main reasons
1. To stop a rich team buying all the games best players and essentially buying a premiership
2. To spread the talent around
3. To stop the clubs over spending and sending themselves broke

Well with no salary cap for players debuted for their current clubs
1. If a team can spend all it wants on players developed themselves then they won't need to go out and buy a premiership
2. Spreading talent around is an artificial thing, it punishes clubs for being successful and it even punishes clubs like parra and raiders who develop so many good young players only to see them leave due to salary cap pressures
3. It's 2015 not the 80s, if clubs can't be trusted to look after themselves then they don't deserve to be in an elite competition like the nrl

you can do your own research on the macro-economics, but the simple fundamental basis for the support of a salary cap in the nrl is to ensure a competitive landscape for all 16 clubs to ensure things like a $1bill tv deal.

f**k around with it and you'll end up with 12 teams and a $500mill tv deal etc.

 

[DiegoNT]

so essentially one team can pay 12mill and another can pay 6mill.

what's a salary cap for again?

I'll make an example out of roosters, they could afford 12m easy
So guys that debuted for roosters like pearce, rts, skd, cordner, friend, guerra, napa etc. . Roosters can spend whatever they like on these players. They are youngsters they've given a go to and I would personally like to see all these guys finish with the roosters
then their would be a salary cap for outside players set at say $2m
So players like maloney, moa, warea-hargreaves, tupou, Ferguson Jennings would all have to fit under that cap

 

[Craig Johnston]

I'll make an example out of roosters, they could afford 12m easy
So guys that debuted for roosters like pearce, rts, skd, cordner, friend, guerra, napa etc. . Roosters can spend whatever they like on these players. They are youngsters they've given a go to and I would personally like to see all these guys finish with the roosters
then their would be a salary cap for outside players set at say $2m
So players like maloney, moa, warea-hargreaves, tupou, Ferguson Jennings would all have to fit under that cap

there is already a long player exemption close to 500k, it may go up slightly pending rlpa demands. that's not a revelation.