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Phil Hughes - When do we drop him?

When do we drop Phil Hughes from the test side


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jargan83

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I could imagine Langer talking with Hughes

PH: How do I bat against spin?
JL: It's just a ball. It has no mind. It's just an object which you can overpower with your mind. Don't think like a ball. Think like a bat that wants to hit a ball.
PH: But a bat has no mind either.
JL: Exactly. You as a human have a mind, so if you think like a bat, you'll become a bat with a mind.
PH: Like a fruit bat?

:lol:
 

hineyrulz

Post Whore
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154,216
I could imagine Langer talking with Hughes

PH: How do I bat against spin?
JL: It's just a ball. It has no mind. It's just an object which you can overpower with your mind. Don't think like a ball. Think like a bat that wants to hit a ball.
PH: But a bat has no mind either.
JL: Exactly. You as a human have a mind, so if you think like a bat, you'll become a bat with a mind.
PH: Like a fruit bat?
:lol: Sad thing is i can see a convo like that happening.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
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Really happy with his quotes overnight. Sounding really optimistic. I got the feeling that getting dropped hasnt broken him like it would a lot of weaker men. He must have heard good things from Boof about him being a real chance for the 5th Test and for the summer ashes.

He is a century maker. If he keeps getting runs they won't be able to ignore him. The most frustrating thing is compared to a lot of others, he wasn't even out of form when he got dropped. 62 average on the tour. Good innings in 3 of his last 4 tests.

The only concerning thing is getting advice from JL. Whatever goes on inside JLs head obviously worked for him but it isnt the sort of stuff you'd want him to be teaching to the next generation.

Hopefully he listens more to Boof and less to JL. Hopefully he scores runs in this tour game and hopefully he stars in this test.
 

Horrie Is God

First Grade
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8,073
Really happy with his quotes overnight. Sounding really optimistic. I got the feeling that getting dropped hasnt broken him like it would a lot of weaker men. He must have heard good things from Boof about him being a real chance for the 5th Test and for the summer ashes.

He is a century maker. If he keeps getting runs they won't be able to ignore him. The most frustrating thing is compared to a lot of others, he wasn't even out of form when he got dropped. 62 average on the tour. Good innings in 3 of his last 4 tests.

The only concerning thing is getting advice from JL. Whatever goes on inside JLs head obviously worked for him but it isnt the sort of stuff you'd want him to be teaching to the next generation.

Hopefully he listens more to Boof and less to JL. Hopefully he scores runs in this tour game and hopefully he stars in this test.

I imagine this is what it's like when you try to think..

7s9i.gif
 

madunit

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Really happy with his quotes overnight. Sounding really optimistic. I got the feeling that getting dropped hasnt broken him like it would a lot of weaker men. He must have heard good things from Boof about him being a real chance for the 5th Test and for the summer ashes.

He is a century maker. If he keeps getting runs they won't be able to ignore him. The most frustrating thing is compared to a lot of others, he wasn't even out of form when he got dropped. 62 average on the tour. Good innings in 3 of his last 4 tests.

The only concerning thing is getting advice from JL. Whatever goes on inside JLs head obviously worked for him but it isnt the sort of stuff you'd want him to be teaching to the next generation.

Hopefully he listens more to Boof and less to JL. Hopefully he scores runs in this tour game and hopefully he stars in this test.

Why would getting dropped have 'broke him'

It happens all the time, he'd be used to it by now.

Hack.
 

BunniesMan

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Why would getting dropped have 'broke him'

It happens all the time, he'd be used to it by now.

Hack.
Getting dropped can do irreparable harm to a players confidence. By the sounds of it that hasn't happened to Hughes. No matter what you think of him or me, that is a good thing.
 

jargan83

Coach
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If a Test players confidence is damaged because they got dropped then they have the mentality of a park cricketer and shouldn't be playing Test Cricket.

Seriously BM your Phil Hughes fetish is disturbing and creepy
 

madunit

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Getting dropped can do irreparable harm to a players confidence. By the sounds of it that hasn't happened to Hughes. No matter what you think of him or me, that is a good thing.
You know what else is bad for a batsmen's confidence?

not scoring runs.

A good thing is if he could show some concentration, intelligence, ability and nerve while batting and score some runs.

Instead you keep banging on about how he has to be mollycoddled to make him comfortable so that he can score runs.

How fragile is Hughes if thats what he needs to perform.

Until he grows a pair, he doesn't deserve a test spot. Simple fact.
 

BunniesMan

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You know what else is bad for a batsmen's confidence?

not scoring runs.

A good thing is if he could show some concentration, intelligence, ability and nerve while batting and score some runs.
.
He did that better than any other recognised batsman in the 1st test. He showed concentration and intelligence and ability and nerve in the 3rd and 4th test in India as well.

This article actually argues that he has been our best number 3 since Ponting. He is averaging 37 at number 3. That is not world class but better than many others who have been given opportunities.

It has been 48 innings since an Australian has scored a Test century at No. 3. Never before has the team had a drought that long at first drop. Not when Harry Moses, Harry Trott and George Giffen were struggling on uncovered pitches in the 1880s. Not when Ian Redpath, Paul Sheahan and Bob Cowper were failing to convert starts in the late 1960s. Never. Every other team - Zimbabwe and Bangladesh included - have had Test hundreds from their No. 3 since Australia's last.
To watch Usman Khawaja over the past two Tests has been to witness a continuation of the first drop malaise. At times he has appeared elegant and classy in his strokes. But, there has also been a frailness, a sense that the bowlers had his measure. In Australia's botched chase in Chester-le-Street, he played a typical Khawaja Test innings: plenty of style but little substance. His limp prod and lbw to Graeme Swann was the beginning of Australia's end.
No. 3 need not be the team's best batsman, but he must be up for a battle. From Ian Chappell to David Boon, from Justin Langer to Ricky Ponting, Australia's modern-day first drops have been fighters, men who have placed a high price on their wicket, regardless of natural ability. There are times when a No. 3 can bat more freely and build on a strong platform, but just as often his main job is to ensure that one for not many doesn't become two for very few.
Big innings matter at first drop, but small ones are equally significant. Since Shaun Marsh scored 141 on debut in Sri Lanka in 2011, not only have Australia not had a century at No. 3, they have also had 11 ducks there from 48 innings. No other position in the top, middle or tail comes close to that many zeros in the same period - the next highest is six ducks from the No.8 batsmen. Since Ponting moved down the order, Australia's No. 3s have collectively averaged 25.62.
And "collectively" is the word. Marsh was injured while batting in the 2011 Cape Town Test, Ponting stood in for him in the second innings, then Khawaja was tried and discarded, Marsh returned in woeful form, Shane Watson visited No. 3 on his stopping-at-all-stations trip down the order, Rob Quiney failed and was forgotten, Watson came back, Phillip Hughes had a turn, Michael Clarke tried it once in India, Ed Cowan's tenure was brief, and now Khawaja is back.
Cricket mythology will tell you that a team's best batsman comes in at No. 3, but Len Hutton and Jack Hobbs were openers. So was Sunil Gavaskar. Allan Border floated from four to six. Sachin Tendulkar has avoided the job so fastidiously that he has played 327 Test innings and not a single one at first drop. Clarke is this team's talisman but as Stuart Broad has shown, the swinging new ball is not his friend. There is no need for Clarke to move higher than No.4.
But then, who gets the job? The production line is not the result of having too many options, but too few good ones. Australia have used No. 3 as a place to try fresh faces (Marsh, Khawaja, Quiney) or more familiar ones in search of a spot (Watson, Hughes, Cowan). It is little wonder, for that is largely how the state teams treat the first drop position. The lack of big scores at domestic level has been well documented, but the dearth of runs at No. 3 is especially alarming.
Consider the following, a list of all the batsmen used at No.3 in the Sheffield Shield last summer, nightwatchmen aside: Khawaja, Hughes, Quiney, Ponting, Marsh, Watson, Alex Doolan, Michael Klinger, Michael Hussey, David Hussey, Marcus North, Aaron Finch, Joe Burns, Peter Forrest, Cameron White, Nic Maddinson, Tom Cooper, Peter Nevill, Tim Cruickshank, Sam Whiteman, Luke Towers, Dom Michael, John Rogers, Michael Hill, Alex Carey, Steve Cazzulino, Sam Miller, Peter Handscomb, Daniel Hughes, Marcus Stonis and even the bowler Kane Richardson.
That's 31 men who batted at No. 3 last season; a mix of veterans, rookies and journeymen. And for all of that, only four centuries were made from first drop in the summer's 31 Shield matches. Not surprisingly, Khawaja (138 v Tasmania) and Hughes (120 v Victoria) made one each, while the other centurions were Doolan (149 v South Australia) and Hill (144 v Queensland).
Doolan might have sent a postcard from Victoria Falls on this year's Australia A tour, but otherwise has had nothing to write home about, and it is difficult to argue against Khawaja and Hughes as being the best Test options. Perhaps Khawaja will be given another chance at The Oval and grasp it, but the signs have not been promising. He may one day stamp himself as a Test batsman, but right now Khawaja at No. 3 looks wrong.
There is a strong argument that Hughes should get the job. Khawaja's strokeplay appears more sophisticated, but Hughes has the fight. He showed that during the first innings at Trent Bridge, when from No. 6 he scored a patient and mature 81 not out as Ashton Agar stole the limelight at the other end. But three low scores followed and Hughes was cut.
It is true that Hughes has issues against quality offspin, but Khawaja hasn't looked comfortable against Swann either. What Hughes has is the ability to score big - 21 first-class hundreds to Khawaja's 11 - and the proven capacity to make runs at Test level. He also has a reasonable record as a Test No.3 - 372 runs at 37.20 - but always seems the batsman most vulnerable to the axe, or to being shuffled around the order.
Since the start of this year's Indian tour, Hughes' Test batting positions look like this: 343343346644. Including tour matches, he has batted in every spot from opening to No. 6 on this trip. Hughes conceded on Wednesday that "at times it can be [difficult] if you keep changing your position in the order, but it's about getting your head around it, and if you do get consistent runs, you'll hold a spot. It can be tricky but it's a professional sport and it's up to the captain and the selectors to give you a position".
It is time to give Hughes the No.3 position and leave him there. He enjoys the new ball, converts and fights. Yes, sometimes he looks ugly doing it. But he is much less pretty batting further down against spin. And when it all comes down to it, he has been Australia's most effective No.3 since Ponting. He has contributed to the record century drought but he has come closer than anyone to breaking it. His last two innings at No.3 were 69 and 45 in trying conditions in India.
If given the opportunity, it is of course up to Hughes to take it. But for now, perhaps the selectors should think about Hughes as first drop, not the first dropped.


http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/story/662531.html

I am not the only person in the world who thinks a) Hughes has been unfairly dropped and b) deserves to play in the next test.
 

JW

Coach
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How many times does he deserve another go FFS?

He was given ample opportunity to impress in his recent stint in Test Cricket and once again, he was sized up by his opposition quick smart and made to look completely useless.

I think the only times Snooze *may* have been hard done by was his initial punting on the last Pom tour. However, even then it was pretty bloody obvious that English quicks had him well and truly figured out.
 

BunniesMan

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How many times does he deserve another go FFS?

He was given ample opportunity to impress in his recent stint in Test Cricket and once again, he was sized up by his opposition quick smart and made to look completely useless.

I think the only times Snooze *may* have been hard done by was his initial punting on the last Pom tour. However, even then it was pretty bloody obvious that English quicks had him well and truly figured out.
You are a fool. He did not deserve to be dropped the 1st or the 3rd time.

He had an innings best score in the 3rd Indian test and 2nd best in the 4th test. Then across the first two Ashes tests he had the highest score by a recognised batsman on a tour where he was averaging 62.

And lets not forget that 81 was unbeaten. Say he managed to get 19 more runs, would he have been dropped for the 3rd test if he was the only top 6 bat to get 100? f**k no. So then you realise how ridiculous that 19 runs is worth dropping someone over.

When he keeps getting dropped far more harshly than other batsmen people will keep wondering "what if" and his name will keep getting brought up when anyone else falters.

The argument has to be settled once and for all and dropping him one test after he has 3 good games in a row or 3 tests after being the youngest player in history to get twin tons will never settle the argument.

For all his critics he averaged 37 at #3. Then he got moved elsewhere for no apparent reason.

An extended run in the top 3 has to happen before people are satisfied once and for all on whether he has what it takes or not.
 

madunit

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He's mentally fragile.

You can only raise two tests where he played at an acceptable level and on both occasions, the series was not on the line.

Put him in a situation where's there's no pressure and someone capable of looking after him in the middle and he scores runs.

That's not the makings of a world class test batsmen in any country.
 

jargan83

Coach
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15,011
Average 37 at number 3 and you're celebrating?

Australian Cricket plunging the depths of mediocrity at the moment
 

African Monkey

First Grade
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8,671
Lol opposition attacks celebrate when he gets selected.

An average of 32 after 26 tests is not of a test standard no.3.
 

JW

Coach
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LOL, he's had enough of a run you dope. What do you want Invers to do, make him an automatic selection for the next few years because he's yet to fulfill your personal fantasies of his batting potential? Take the blinkers off son.

The fact is that he has been given his chance(s) and each and every time the *same* problem arose - opposition bowlers were quickly able to find a weakness in his game to render him useless. First it was short and at the body, now its any slow-medium delivery that deviates by and ant's dick.

He can go back and plunder first class and grade attacks all he likes, but the pattern is there for all to see, and its not something you'd see from a player that you insist is destined for greatness and should occupy arguably the most important position in our top 6.

Latch on to someone else for a while FFS.
 
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African Monkey

First Grade
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8,671
BM tell us all what you see in Phil Hughes' game that impresses you so much that you believe he can be the greates batsman of all time.
 

BunniesMan

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BM tell us all what you see in Phil Hughes' game that impresses you so much that you believe he can be the greates batsman of all time.
21 first class centuries at an average of 45 before his 25th birthday makes him the clear standout batting talent of his generation. Everyone will bring up 2nd grade bowlers. But every other batsman in Australia has played on the same pitches against the same bowlers and noone under 30 is even in the same ballpark as Hughes.

His timing and his hand eye coordination are second to none. He has an ability to get the ball to the boundary like noone else in this country on the right side of 30.

Did he have an issue with accurate quicks before 2011? Absolutely. He worked on his technique. Since coming back he averages 50 odd against test fast bowlers. That is outstanding.

Is he less than outstanding against quality spin? Yes but his troubles are exaggerated. He has scored well against arguably the best in the world in Herath both in Australia and in Sri Lanka.

After finding his feet in his first ever Indian tests he handled spin better than the rest of the team in the 3rd and 4th test in India.

Then in the 1st Ashes test he was our best real batsman.

Then he had one bad test.

Then he got dropped.

He was not given a chance to succeed or fail properly. Steve Waugh thinks the exact same thing. The article I linked to earlier says the same.

I am not alone in thinking he is good enough to be a long term successful top order test batsman.
 
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