Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

[Willow]

Steve:
It's a small point but I just picked up on your reference to America and the USA coming to Australia's aid in the event of being invaded by another country, namely Indonesia...
"One thing not mentioned is that the US and Britain, if not the rest of NATO, would quickly come to your aid and stop such an invasion. Perhaps some of you would think a little more of US foreign policy in that case. "

How do we know this? Not since the battle of the Coral Sea have we seen any assistance being offered by the USA and only then it was because it fitted into McCarthur's plans for the Pacific war. As well, we have to go back to the 1880s to find British troops making the trip to defend the antipodes.

I understand that Canada is still debating whether or not to get involved. In Australia, there was no debate, no recalling of parliament, it just done without consultation. At least in Canada, the matter is being discussed.

Australia has a long history of sending troops at a drop of hat. The most recent deployment of 1500 joinsthis long list which includes the Gulf War, Vietnam, Korea, the WWII campaigns in Africa and Europe, the same in WWI and even the Boer War.
The basic reasoning behind this standing policy is that if we answer the call of our allies, then they will help us too.
Well, history doesn't back this up.
When Australian and New Zealand asked for US assistance in liberating East Timor recently, they were told that no military assistance was available.
IMO, this puts into question, the whole issue of Australia being protected by the US and it's sphere of influence.

I fully appreciate that this is a point of debate within the debate and many books have been written supporting both points of view. At the very least, the jury is still out on who is right and who is wrong but IMO, there is no guarantee that these countries would quickly come to Australia's assistance in the event of invasion.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Willow: Canadian ships sailed from Halifax today to join the coalition in Afghanistan, though in a supporting role. There wasn't much debate in Parliament. Before the Gulf War, though, you're right, it was thoroughly debated before we sent air force fighter planes to Qatar. They were only used for recconnaissance, not combat missions.
Sorry, I don't know enough about East Timor to comment. It's not likely to happen, but if Indonesia invaded you unilaterally, I can't imagine the US allowing that to happen to a democratic, English-speaking ally. Maybe I'm being naive, because Canadians feel secure that no one would ever invade us without the US stepping in, because we are close neighbours. Aus is a distant rather than close ally, but I still think the US would help you.
Now, if the current crisis escalted into a huge, Armaggedon type war in the Middle East, and then Indonesia invaded Aus, that would be a different story

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Willow, it would be rather naive to suggest that a country such as Indonesia WOULDN'T be looking to spread their wings. Sure, there is no solid evidence of this, but lets think about it, the country is grossly overpopulated, the natural resources are all but exhausted and the infrastructure is shabby to say the least.
Countries invading other countries has been a part of life since year dot. Its not a rare phenomenon, it is potentially a threat that Australia could face.
Who knows where this war could end up? If the US end up fighting a full scale war in the middle east, who will they have to send to help us if something breaks out? The most dangerous thing that could happen is to have all these 'dissident' countries combine. The notion of a Jihad introduces a new level of volatility. In many cultures, religion is a way of life. There is no separation between religion and lifestyle, which is a common feature of Western cultures. War means war, war means willing to die for the cause in this particular religion. Never underestimate an enemy.....
The great threat is the unknown one. The enemy is invisible, the anthrax attacks have not eminated from any one area. It is a cowardly act (a faceless act), how do we attack an enemy that we can't see??
MFC.

 

[Willow]

MFC: Lets just say that I find the threat from Indonesia to be unlikely in the foreseeable future.
The whole subject of Indonesia was raised by me to point out that a section of the coalition isn't as solid as the USA first thought. I had no idea that we would suddenly see this as a threat to Australia.
Perhaps this is to be expected when the enemy can't be seen, that is, we have speculate as to the identity of the enemy.

 

[El Duque]

Come Mr Taliban.

 

[imported_The Albatross]

I agree that Indonesia is not an immediate threat to Australia. I suppose we won't know for sure if America would defend Australia against an Indonesion invasion (in the very unlikely event that it did ocurr) until it happened, but personally I feel 100% sure they would - Britain certainly would IMO.

But regardless of what America would do I am sure that Indonesia would expect the US to defend us, so that is another reason why they would be very unlikely to invade Australia.

I don't think the East Timor situation is in any way indicative of whether the US would support Australia if we were attacked. In the East Timor situation we weren't being attacked, rather we made a conscious decision to assist a smaller nation to get through a tough time.

 

[CanadianSteve]

El Duque: That's hilarious.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

BAGHDAD (AP) — Iraqi President Saddam Hussein said the United States has practised terrorism against Iraq for 11 years in an attempt to overthrow his regime in Baghdad. Responding to a letter sent to him by a U.S. citizen, Saddam said in comments made public today: "Do you know that your administration has been promoting terrorism against us (Iraq), calling for ending our regime by force and allocating funds for this purpose." Saddam's response was carried by the official Iraqi News Agency. Christopher J. Love, from Pennsylvania, sent Saddam a letter asking him to promote new Iraqi-U.S. relations to solve disputes and fight terrorism. In his response, Saddam accused successive American administrations of "committing acts of genocide against Iraq by imposing the 11 years of sanctions that led to the killing of 1.5 million people." Tough UN economic sanctions — backed by the United States — have been in place since Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait and the subsequent 1991 Gulf War. The Iraqi president said Washington, which regards Saddam's regime as a sponsor of terrorism, targets Iraq because it refuses to comply with U.S. policies in the Middle East. Saddam also accused the United States of failing to provide proof linking Osama bin laden, the exiled Saudi dissident, to the Sept. 11 crimes against humanity. The United States wants bin Laden dead or alive, believing he was behind the attacks on New York and Washington that killed more than 5,000 people. The United States should respect the security and dignity of others before asking them to do the same, Saddam said. "Those who attack people with missiles should expect someone to try to seek revenge for his people and dignity." Saddam said Iraqis oppose using religious or ethnic fanaticism to harm innocent people. "American foreign policy tolerates the death of Iraqi children because Iraqis reject the Zionist occupation of the Arab lands in Palestine, Lebanon and the Golan (Heights)," he said. Israeli-occupation of Arab lands, particularly in the Palestinian territories, remains one of the Middle East region's most volatile issues. Israel's refusal to return the Golan Heights to Syria and Chebaa Farms to Lebanon — both captured during the 1967 Middle East War — perpetuates Arab anxieties in the region. Meanwhile, the Iraqi government daily newspaper, Al-Jumhuriya, accused the U.S. administration of being behind the global anthrax scare to gain support for its war against terrorism. "Moreover, America is in need for any new pretext (including the anthrax crisis) to continue its aggression," said the paper in an editorial.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator who started the Gulf War by invading his neighbour Kuwait, unprovoked. He has been known to practice terrorism in the form of chemical warfare on the people of his own country. If he wanted to end the UN sanctions, all he would have to do would be to allow the UN inspections, better yet destroy the weapons that they object to. Better yet, resign and allow a democratic election to replace him.
The US and its allies in the Gulf War should have finished the job in 1991 by moving on to Baghdad and removing Saddam from power. Right now there is evidence that some of the Sept. 11 hijackers met with Iraqi officials in Europe in the past year, so they likely are a sponsor of terrorism. To give any credence to his views now would be like listening to Hitler's reasons for invading Poland and France in the middle of WW

 

[imported_Johnny Rico]

Whats wrong with saddam hussaine? sure - he is a dictator but he already had democratic elections.Everyone signs there name and anyone who votes for him gets special treatment - anyone who doesn't vote for him are asked to go into the no flyzone which is a good place - i meen, if you had the choice to live in a place with lots of flies or no flies, where would you choose? I know your answer - no flies.
I think he got 99% of the vote. A very popular guy for a miltary man and some of my friends think he is a hero.
those kuwait people don't have elections. they have some family of shakes running the place - my infamation is that saddam was liberating kuwait.

 

[ozbash]

thats dead right johnny, except some of those shakes are dairy farmers.

does that make them milk shakes ?

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Just for everyone's information, on the today show in Sydney this morning, Anthony Mundine had an interview and made some astounding comments....
I didn't catch the interview, but it is already stirring up quite a few people. He stated that:
-He does not support the actions of Australian troops
-And that the Americans had this coming to them
Mundine an expert on world matters now?? Honestly, this guy is trying really hard to get people offside with him. Just 2 days ago, he appealed to the fair minded people of Australia to support him, and then he goes ahead and says 'the americans had this coming to them'. I don't know if anyone else has read/heard about this, but this could turn into a bit of a media frenzy....
Im quite amazed that even Mundine said this...But oh well, he has never been scared to say what he thinks..
Moff.

 

[El Duque]

The other day after his comments about Allah and Jesus I said

"Next he'll be telling us bin Laden is a top bloke"

I wasn't too far off the mark.I hope Ottke beats him senseless.

 

[Willow]

The US has stepped up it's ground war.
The first US casualties have been self inflicted as a helicopter went down killing the crew and today there are reports of another chopper crashing.
I suppose it's only a matter of time before we hear of 'friendly fire' killing allied troops and civilians.
Hopefully they won't make too much of a mess of it.

On another issue, I don't know if anyone saw the movie, 'Breaker Morant' on the ABC yesterday. For those who don't know, the movie is about 20 years old and is the true story ofa trial of Australian soldiers in the Boer war, circa 1900.
While discussing the new style guerilla tactics which were employed by both sides, the main character said, "This is a new kind of war...for a new century.".... apparently, this was the rhetoric of the day.
It seems ironic that these are almost the exact words that George W Bush used. It's eerie that a hundred years later, we are still using the same rhetoric as if it's something new.
This further backs the view that we are doomed to repeat our mistakes.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

On a lighter note, I am sure many of you received the emails regarding number 11 (the date of the attack, flight number, etc). Well some bloke named Dave has responded to this email with his own conclusions.

Dave's response:
Oh my God! How worried should I be?
There are 11 letters in the name"David Pawson!" I'm going into hiding NOW. See you in a few weeks.
Wait a sec .. just realized "YOU CAN'T HIDE" also has 11 letters!

What am I gonna do? Help me!!! The terrorists are after me! ME! I can't believe it! Oh crap, there must be someplace on the planet Earth I could hide! But no..."PLANET EARTH" has 11 letters, too!

Maybe Nostradamus can help me. But dare I trust him? There are 11 letters in "NOSTRADAMUS."

I know, the Red Cross can help. No they can't... 11 letters in "THE RED CROSS," can't trust them.

I would rely on self defense, but "SELF DEFENSE" has 11 letters in it, too! Can someone help?

Anyone?

If so, send me email. No, don't... "SEND ME EMAIL" has 11 letters....

Will this never end? I'm going insane! "GOING INSANE???" Eleven letters!!

Nooooooooooo!!!!!! I guess I'll die alone, even though "I'LL DIE ALONE" has 11 letters.....

Oh my God, I just realized that America is doomed! Our Independence Day is July 4th ... 7/4 ... 7+4 = 11

Dave
PS. "IT'S BULLSHIT" has 11 letters also.

 

[tigger]

596..... Bebeto, you should come to the chatroom

 

[imported_The Albatross]

Bebeto,
I also got that stuff about 11 and I think it's true. Why do I think this? Because my wife was unfortunately born on the 11th of November (11th month) and she's been behaving like the devil herself ever since the night I drank 11 bourbans after drinking 11 beers and not getting out of bed till 11 o'clock the next day.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

Albatross........After your post, I am starting to reconsider things. Maybe there is a factor with 11 in this. 11 bourbons after 11 beers? Are you mad? hahahaha

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Willow: I think that the fact that Bush is using rhetoric that is 100yrs old highlights the sad fact that in 100yrs, the world has not learnt its lessons about war. Bush has struggled at times, to be honest, i am thinking he has been relying on Tony Blair a helluva lot more then most of us realise....
MFC/

 

[tigger]

600.....

The glory is mine