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Rationalisation of Sydney

greenBV4

Bench
Messages
2,510
The AFL have over half a million less people and have ten top flight clubs in Melbourne.
I'm sure the people of Geelong wouldn't like being referred to as a suburb of Melbourne, its as much a city in it's own right as Newcastle

So 9 clubs and a population gap thats closing pretty quickly, and the same argument gets thrown around AFL circles, just bit less now that they've gone to 18, which would also be the case if the NRL went to 18 with Perth/Brisbane2/NZ2. Bringing back the bears before any of those 3, maybe even before Adelaide and Melbourne 2, would spark this debate even more.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
It’s all connected, more members leads to more gate takings leads to more merchandise sales etc etc. it’s about building a committed fan base that will spend money on their club, build that an the seemingly massive $13million tv grant actually starts to become the lessor important revenue source. BUT you do need a significant fan base t9 reach that, which leads us back to population size and clubs reach.

And yes I ddI read it, hence why I felt the need to call out that it is simply untrue to say that gate takings dont matter. They only don’t matter if you are only attracting 10k fans and can surbvive on a sub $24million revenue.

Surely you can see that you are making a lot of massive assumptions and that you are asserting mechanisms that aren't necessarily true...

Let's just rattle off some of the assumptions you are making and why they are dumb to begin with:

You're assuming that membership numbers equate to crowds which also is very obviously not the case considering that non-ticketed memberships are a thing at all, but even aside from that just look at e.g. the Rabbitohs membership numbers and crowd averages from over the years, then tell me the two are directly connected...
Hell, being the owner of a membership to a club doesn't even necessarily suggest whether or not the owner of said membership is a fan of the club at all! Stallion represents the classic case of that (as he will happily remind us ad nauseum): a Roosters fan living in Newcastle that owns a Knights membership cause he wants to go to the footy and that is the cheapest way to do it.

You are also assuming crowd size directly equates to the size of the fan base, which is abjectly false and any big American or European sports club will tell you that...

You're also assuming that crowds and merch sales are directly connected which obviously isn't the case at all, as e.g. 90% of the people I see in Canberra wearing out of town or overseas clubs merch either very rarely or never attend their teams matches, and there are big American and European clubs that sell merch hand over fist to people all over the world that will never attend a game, many only wear their stuff as a fashion statement and have never and never intend to actually watch a game at all.

But taking things away from sports for a moment, my personal favourite example of merch sales not equating to fan bases is the Misfits. The Misfits are a punk rock band that for years and years have sold shit tons of merch (particularly t-shirts) across the world particularly to teenagers and young adults through chain clothing stores, particularly Hot Topic in America and their international partners, whos' logo and brand was/is infinitely more popular than the actual band it's self is or ever was. Literally 95% of the people you will see wearing any Misfits merch at all will have never heard a song and won't be able to name any of the band members, some of them won't even realise that the Misfits are a band and just assume that it is a clothing brand.

The Misfits are also the best example of you're little chain of "more members leads to more gate takings leads to more merchandise sales etc" being utter BS as well, as for the longest time they went nowhere near hitting the charts with any of their albums and at best could only book medium sized clubs as venues, that is until very recently when they reformed after a long hiatus and a huge percentage of the people that grew up owning some of their merch came out of the woodwork to see the band, and now they are selling out arenas across America. In other words they are an example of a group that did your chain in the complete reverse, they went high merch sales leads to more fans, more fans leads to more music sales, more music sales leads to better gate takings, and they aren't the only example of different groups/clubs/brands/whatever achieving the same outcome in all sorts of different ways.

But ignoring all that for the moment, you are again totally missing my original point that to survive (but also to thrive in many cases) professional clubs don't need big crowds these days, and you've pretty much inadvertently conceded that point a few times now.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
I'm sure the people of Geelong wouldn't like being referred to as a suburb of Melbourne, its as much a city in it's own right as Newcastle

So 9 clubs and a population gap thats closing pretty quickly, and the same argument gets thrown around AFL circles, just bit less now that they've gone to 18, which would also be the case if the NRL went to 18 with Perth/Brisbane2/NZ2. Bringing back the bears before any of those 3, maybe even before Adelaide and Melbourne 2, would spark this debate even more.

Geelong is visible from central Melbourne. Their are suburbs such as Penrith that are called a city but are deemed part of Sydney. So let's get that correct : Melbourne has ten top flight AFL clubs with half a million more people than Sydney which has 9 NRL clubs including the Illawarra. That's a fact.
 

Shark62

Juniors
Messages
2,497
Geelong is visible from central Melbourne. Their are suburbs such as Penrith that are called a city but are deemed part of Sydney. So let's get that correct : Melbourne has ten top flight AFL clubs with half a million more people than Sydney which has 9 NRL clubs including the Illawarra. That's a fact.
Are you seriously trying to argue Geelong is a part of Melbourne?
Dear me that is utterly silly. No wonder so many have put you on ignore.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Are you seriously trying to argue Geelong is a part of Melbourne?
Dear me that is utterly silly. No wonder so many have put you on ignore.

Just as logical as the city of Penrith and Wollongong! Are you seriously thinking Wollongong is not separate to Sydney? If we agree that these two 'cities' are separate then it's 8.5 top flight NRL clubs in Sydney and Melbourne 'city' 9 for AFL.
 

Shark62

Juniors
Messages
2,497
Just as logical as the city of Penrith and Wollongong! Are you seriously thinking Wollongong is not separate to Sydney? If we agree that these two 'cities are separate then it's 8.5 top flight NRL clubs in Sydney and Melbourne 'city' 9 for AFL.
Oh god I think I’ve had enough of this already.
 

greenBV4

Bench
Messages
2,510
Just as logical as the city of Penrith and Wollongong! Are you seriously thinking Wollongong is not separate to Sydney? If we agree that these two 'cities' are separate then it's 8.5 top flight NRL clubs in Sydney and Melbourne 'city' 9 for AFL.
Yes Wollongong is seperate to Sydney, Sydney has 8.5 clubs if you want to include halves

Penrith IS part of Sydney, heres the first line from wikipedia:
Penrith is a suburb and major centre in the metropolitan area of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia.

All of Australia's major metros are made up of city councils, that doesn't mean one like Penrith is seperate. Here's a map of the cities that make up Greater Melbourne, note that you wont find Geelong on this.
Map-of-Greater-Melbourne.png
Geelong IS NOT apart of greater Melbourne
 

Shark62

Juniors
Messages
2,497
Yes Wollongong is seperate to Sydney, Sydney has 8.5 clubs if you want to include halves

Penrith IS part of Sydney, heres the first line from wikipedia:
Penrith is a suburb and major centre in the metropolitan area of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia.

All of Australia's major metros are made up of city councils, that doesn't mean one like Penrith is seperate. Here's a map of the cities that make up Greater Melbourne, note that you wont find Geelong on this.
View attachment 28796
Geelong IS NOT apart of greater Melbourne
I was going to post something similar but I think it’s futile
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,579
7 clubs - 47k attendees. That’s what games in Sydney drew last weekend. We can make all the excuses we want but that is pretty terrible for what should be our stronghold. If less clubs would lead to bigger catchments leading to bigger crowds would happen is highly debateable but at the moment having all these clubs in one place isn’t giving attendances the boost you’d hope to see with two sets of supporters in close proximity. Where is the tribalism we hear so much about in the argument not to merge or centralise?
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
6,637
How pathetic. Male participation is increasing in other codes and you still can't work it out! Their's no agenda against females in any comment. You are a dribbling mess of crap!

Do you have a source for the claim that 'male participation is increasing in other codes'. Also, which codes are you referring to specifically?

Are you suggesting that male participaition is not growing in RL? If so, what do you base that claim on?

Back to my original point on participation numbers; to the Government, and increasingly the NRL (and clubs) it doesn't matter if the participation comes from men, women, kids, touch football players.

https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2018/09/17/raiders-pathway-touch-to-nrl/

The NRL are even looking at including touch football into the development pathways for juniors to stop the flow of soccer mums taking their kids to a 'safer' game. So all forms of the game and participation in it is vitally important for funding and sponsorship through recognition of the brand.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/ho...ing-goals-under-pressure-20180925-p505ut.html
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
7 clubs - 47k attendees. That’s what games in Sydney drew last weekend. We can make all the excuses we want but that is pretty terrible for what should be our stronghold. If less clubs would lead to bigger catchments leading to bigger crowds would happen is highly debateable but at the moment having all these clubs in one place isn’t giving attendances the boost you’d hope to see with two sets of supporters in close proximity. Where is the tribalism we hear so much about in the argument not to merge or centralise?

I see the dummies are back!?
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
6,637
ln all the talk about the expansion of our game seems to have a theme to it – a theme that is a mistake.
It makes sense why this theme exists, within the virtual echo chamber of nostalgia and bias that is rugby league.
But if we want to truly grow our game, we need to smash this bubble, at least from headquarters’ perspective.
The theme I’m alluding to is that Sydney rugby league is the game, the cliched DNA, ‘where it all started’, all of it.
For some reason, the mouthpieces of league in Sydney’s media are constantly telling us that the traditions of the Sydney suburban competition need to be preserved in the national competition.
This is absolute rubbish.
Those traditions belong to the state competition they started in. The game is and always has been bigger than the competition in Sydney.
True expansion of our game will not be achieved by telling everyone else to play Sydney’s game.
It can only be achieved by making the game everyone else’s game to play.
It’s achieved by sharing ownership of the national competition equally with those who might be new to it.
For far too long we’ve heard how we need to protect and consolidate rugby league in Sydney.
Why?
Those traditions don’t belong to the NRL, they don’t belong to anyone who cares about the game from outside of Sydney and they certainly don’t belong to anyone we might be trying to attract to our game, to truly expand it.
The NRL started in 1998, not 1908.
Some clubs started in 1908 and deserve to be congratulated for their longevity, for having teams compete in the NSWRL competition then also fielding teams in the NRL.
The NSWRL should be remembered for being a strong competition.
But the attempt to say they are the same competition is false and our game will be improved dramatically by altering this mentality.
It may feel good for Sydney fans, and keep them interested in the game, to tell them that this comp is the same as the one they used to follow.
It may have been necessary for the NRL to market themselves that way to ease Sydney fans across to a competition that was no longer solely run by ex-Sydney league players for the Sydney market.
That time has now passed.
We need to be a proper national competition or the game will slide even further behind the competitions that truly embraced the idea of a national competition.
There is a big difference between the NRL and the old ‘pies and tinnies on the hill at suburban grounds’.
There is a big difference between suburban rivalries and whole city rivalries. It’s still tribalism, just bigger.
All those sources of nostalgia still exist – they’re in the state competitions.
I still love going down the road and watching my local team play in the Intrust Super Cup while sitting on the hill.
Just because a suburban Sydney club isn’t in the national competition, that doesn’t mean they’re dead. That doesn’t mean that a region is unrepresented.
They’re just in the NSW competition where they started.
When we think of expansion, we need to think about truly expanding our game to people who will never have any skin in the game if we try to force one portion of the game’s history onto them.
How can a new league fan in Perth relate to a rivalry that started on the other side of the continent?
We need to create the best possible product for the future, and that means reducing the number of clubs in Sydney.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/04/07/the-nrl-must-forget-its-suburban-sydney-past/

Standing ovation!
 

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