Rationalisation of Sydney

[Walter sobchak]

20

My thoughts exactly. With the development of the png hunters and Fiji side in the Canterbury cup plus players from England and maybe even NZ schoolboy union players to make up the numbers for the extra 2 then 4 teams.

Also long term development in Western Australia and Victoria could produce more NRL standard players.

 

[Stallion]

My thoughts exactly. With the development of the png hunters and Fiji side in the Canterbury cup plus players from England and maybe even NZ schoolboy union players to make up the numbers for the extra 2 then 4 teams.

Also long term development in Western Australia and Victoria could produce more NRL standard players.

Absolutely . When word gets out that more clubs are on the way, it creates momentum and growth in junior numbers and fan interest. I personally know from my trial experience at the Roosters that plenty of talented players are unlucky,injured or miss out on being taken up. The initial trial squad was 300 to make the 17 positions(I was cut with 30 left in the squad - freakish footballers were cut before my demise )

 

[Walter sobchak]

Absolutely . When word gets out that more clubs are on the way, it creates momentum and growth in junior numbers and fan interest. I personally know from my trial experience at the Roosters that plenty of talented players are unlucky,injured or miss out on being taken up. The initial trial squad was 300 to make the 17 positions(I was cut with 30 left in the squad - freakish footballers were cut before my demise )

I think if you announced 2 more franchises for the 2022 season and another 2 for 2023/2024 then that gives you around 5 years to absorb 4 more teams and gives you 5 more years to develop potential players from png, Fiji, NZ, Western Australia and Victoria.

Plus union scoolboy talent from NZ, Australia and the Pacific islands.

 

[Stallion]

I think if you announced 2 more franchises for the 2022 season and another 2 for 2023/2024 then that gives you around 5 years to absorb 4 more teams and gives you 5 more years to develop potential players from png, Fiji, NZ, Western Australia and Victoria.

Plus union scoolboy talent from NZ, Australia and the Pacific islands.

Probably two consolidation/ expansion clubs (Central Coast Bears & Brisbane2) in the short term: Extensive junior bases in place, along with infrastructure like modern stadiums, transport and user friendly media connections with fans to be regained and gained plus the local derby games. A further two expansion clubs after significant development in juniors and infrastructure along with harnessing sponsorship support and utilizing timezone friendly game tv times etc. (perhaps these clubs being introduced to coincide with the following tv deal ) That's the prudent solid way forward without diluting existing fan bases as others seem to want.

 

[Walter sobchak]

Probably two consolidation/ expansion clubs (Central Coast Bears & Brisbane2) in the short term: Extensive junior bases in place, along with infrastructure like modern stadiums, transport and user friendly media connections with fans to be regained and gained plus the local derby games. A further two expansion clubs after significant development in juniors and infrastructure along with harnessing sponsorship support and utilizing timezone friendly game tv times etc. (perhaps these clubs being introduced to coincide with the following tv deal ) That's the prudent solid way forward without diluting existing fan bases as others seem to want.

Perth and NZ2 for the expansion franchises and bob’s your uncle. everybody’s a winner.

 

[Stallion]

Perth and NZ2 for the expansion franchises and bob’s your uncle. everybody’s a winner.

Yes. West Coast Pirates and Wellington Orcas. Both providing useful scheduling timeslot flexibility and expanding the NRL footprint. It seems so doable yet this logic is sadly being thwarted by divisive chatter and poor administration. That's the sad reality.

 

[Pommy]

Perth and NZ2 for the expansion franchises and bob’s your uncle. everybody’s a winner.

It’s not really that simple though is it. There’s not enough talent to just add teams. Stallion will tell you he had amazing players cut before him in a trial 25 years ago but look at it another way Dylan Napa and Josh McGuire are nailed on Queensland reps. The depth really just isn’t there.

 

[The Great Dane]

Each has their own strengths but some significant weaknesses, Cowboys seem to be generally successful in all areas. Like I said Knights, despite large fanbase, have financially struggled for years and even now are only solvent due to pokies taking over. Raiders, despite plenty of money, have traditionally drawn crowds at the lower end of the attendance chart. Titans are a basket case all round, Wollongong had to merge, Gosford didnt last. Its not a great track record for regional teams and Id say it is only getting harder as clubs require $30mill plus revenue to compete.
I'd say the Cowboys are the only regional club that has ticked most boxes well.

The Raiders are also based in the coldest city to be represented in any national sports competition and their season runs through winter, yet despite that fact have had to deal with some of the worst stadiums with the least cover in the country. They've also had one of the least competitive teams over the last 25 years, and have the most direct competition in the sports market of any of the NRL clubs from smaller markets.

So really comparing the Raiders to the Cowboys, and the Knights for that matter, is comparing apples and oranges because the circumstances of the markets that they operate in are just so vastly different. However in saying that I think it's pretty safe to say that if you trade markets and put the Cowboys in Canberra that they are having a lot worse time of it than they currently have in Townsville, and if you were to drop the Knights into Canberra then they'd almost certainly have folded a long time ago.

Also you are painting an extremely rosy picture of the Cowboys, they have had their fair share of troubles (especially in the early days) just like everybody else.

But ignoring everything that I said above for a second, who f**king cares about crowds, they literally mean next to nothing anymore and aren't really a measure of success let alone anything else. The only reason that they are talked about at all is because some people have this strange need to compare the NRL to the AFL, which, broadly speaking, is waste of time and energy.

 

[The Great Dane]

Rugby league in Canberra is number 1 football code. And is getting bigger with a great footy side that is doing the right things in the local. community.

Yes and no.

Canberra's sporting pedigree is complex to say the least, and the most popular sport in the city is very much dictated by fads that are often created by which team in national competitions is going well in that moment.

Pre-80's RL definitely wasn't the most popular sport, Aussie Rules was easily the biggest sport in town. After Aussie Rules it was Cricket, then daylight, and then League and Union were kind of neck and neck for third place, but Union was probably bigger in Canberra it's self and League bigger in the surrounding regions.

After 1980 it gets complicated.

The Cannons were formed in 79 and had consistent success through the 80's, and for a while there, a good half decade or so, basketball was definitely the most popular sport amongst kids in Canberra and probably the most popular sport outright for a minute as well.

Then the Raiders win 89 and go on to have their golden age and RL absolutely explodes in Canberra to the point that it had a massive influence on the culture of the city, and RL is definitely, by far, the most popular sport in the ACT at the time. But by the late 90s that's starting to die down.

Then in the late 90's the Brumbies are formed and have almost instant success, and their success along with the RUWC coming to Australia leads to huge growth for RU in Canberra, and by about 03-05 RU is the biggest sport in Canberra. But as their success starts to wane so to does the popularity of RU in Canberra.

That more or less brings us to now, where RL is on top again, but before 2016 I wouldn't have been comfortable saying that it was the most popular sport outright, and we only have to go back to 2013 when the Brumbies came runners up in Super and RU was definitely on top.

RL being the most popular sport in Canberra is a very close run thing, much closer then most Raiders and RL fans in general like to admit, and it could can change again at any moment.

 

[Walter sobchak]

Yes. West Coast Pirates and Wellington Orcas. Both providing useful scheduling timeslot flexibility and expanding the NRL footprint. It seems so doable yet this logic is sadly being thwarted by divisive chatter and poor administration. That's the sad reality.

Swap the wellington orcas for the Christchurch bulls playing out of rugby league park and it’s all good.

 

[Stallion]

Swap the wellington orcas for the Christchurch bulls playing out of rugby league park and it’s all good.

Agree.
Or "Christchurch Devils "?

 

[Walter sobchak]

Agree.
Or "Christchurch Devils "?

If a RL franchise was ever approved from the South Island I hope it’s named Christchurch and not Canterbury.

 

[Stallion]

If a RL franchise was ever approved from the South Island I hope it’s named Christchurch and not Canterbury.

Has to be ! Or South Island Orcas ?

 

[Stallion]

Yes and no.

Canberra's sporting pedigree is complex to say the least, and the most popular sport in the city is very much dictated by fads that are often created by which team in national competitions is going well in that moment.

Pre-80's RL definitely wasn't the most popular sport, Aussie Rules was easily the biggest sport in town. After Aussie Rules it was Cricket, then daylight, and then League and Union were kind of neck and neck for third place, but Union was probably bigger in Canberra it's self and League bigger in the surrounding regions.

After 1980 it gets complicated.

The Cannons were formed in 79 and had consistent success through the 80's, and for a while there, a good half decade or so, basketball was definitely the most popular sport amongst kids in Canberra and probably the most popular sport outright for a minute as well.

Then the Raiders win 89 and go on to have their golden age and RL absolutely explodes in Canberra to the point that it had a massive influence on the culture of the city, and RL is definitely, by far, the most popular sport in the ACT at the time. But by the late 90s that's starting to die down.

Then in the late 90's the Brumbies are formed and have almost instant success, and their success along with the RUWC coming to Australia leads to huge growth for RU in Canberra, and by about 03-05 RU is the biggest sport in Canberra. But as their success starts to wane so to does the popularity of RU in Canberra.

That more or less brings us to now, where RL is on top again, but before 2016 I wouldn't have been comfortable saying that it was the most popular sport outright, and we only have to go back to 2013 when the Brumbies came runners up in Super and RU was definitely on top.

RL being the most popular sport in Canberra is a very close run thing, much closer then most Raiders and RL fans in general like to admit, and it could can change again at any moment.

The Brumbies have been successful on field (semi finals last year) and have produced poor crowds. The aggregate support of both teams compared over the same period in existence would still be massively in favour of the Raiders . There may have been a time when the both were closely comparable but not over the long haul . The Raiders reign supreme!

 

[The Great Dane]

The Brumbies have been successful on field (semi finals last year) and have produced poor crowds. The aggregate support of both teams compared over the same period in existence would still be massively in favour of the Raiders . There may have been a time when the both were closely comparable but not over the long haul . The Raiders reign supreme!

Said the guy who's probably only spent a couple of days of his life in Canberra at most to the man that's lived the vast majority of his life here...

Mark my words, if the Brumbies win a championship or even better go on a hot streak of success then suddenly every man and his dog will have always been a Brumbies fan, and their numbers, and by proxy RU's numbers, will go through the roof.

Hell it doesn't even have to be the Brumbies!

Say an A-league team gets a license and they are successful then suddenly Canberra will be a massive soccer town, Canberra gets a BBL license and they are successful and boom it's nothing but cricket.

It's just the way it is here.

 

[taipan]

Phil Gould said on 100% footy their Leagues club doesn't generate as much revenue as some others due to being in a poor location. Not sure how accurate that is.

That is true.But as stated, the club has not been as dependent on poker machine monies(because there was little) as other clubs have.
The new club with all the new housing and retail around it, will improve that situation.

 

[taipan]

It actually isnt, regional NSW is re TV audience per population, Sydney TV audiences are pretty poor really (200-350k range) population size considered.

Most of the Sydney clubs rely on pokie machines, some like you said (eels, Panthers, Bulldogs etc) desperately so, though their revenue is pretty decent in other areas so one can only assume they must have massive football dept budgets. Financial stability is important but just one of the criteria that should be used in the cull.

You missed my point.Without Sydney TV audiences(which the Cap city and Tv ad buyers use "ratings"and not regionals),and you have a further reduction in Sydney clubs (and Sydney interest and attendees),there is an impact.
One only has to look at the sh*t Tv ratings in non heartland Sydney for the Swans and Midgets ,to show Tv ratings in Cap cities for non heartland football teams, does not make up for the loss in today's terms of heartland teams


Last para I agree.Sharks have not been able to rely ATM on poker machine revenues ,because there was little available.A new clubs club(compared to the run down one now in existence) ,with all the residentials being built around it will assist in that area.
If all clubs are financially stable QED ,there should be zero need for a cull.

 

[taipan]

I can see a new Norths scenario. If Sharks fans wont travel to watch games at Shark Park what hope they'll go to Kogorah for games? I hope they have invested that money wisely!

Apart form the crap Thursday night crowd against the Cows(who brought no one),they still got a decent crowd against the Rabbits(and there were not that many Rabbit's supporters there with due respect.All seating just about sold out then.
No doubt some Sharks fans won't travel the distance,Jubilee is hardly an enticing ground, but others have noted Kogarah is closer to where they live (as other team supporters) so it makes it easier for them.
The Leagues club and the ground not being available means the developers can move in and get the work done far quicker.And they(developers) are covering the estimated loss of revenue(est $3m) by moving, so the club will not be out of pocket.
AFAIK the money is being invested by people with the necessary qualifications and proven performances, and not by the local groundsman.You only get this money once.If they stuff up, they deserve to face the consequences.
The break up of the $40m as I understand it is: $15m allowed for the complete rebuild of the League club(although the shell remains),$18m to be banked, and the remainder to clear debt.

 

[hutch]

It’s not really that simple though is it. There’s not enough talent to just add teams. Stallion will tell you he had amazing players cut before him in a trial 25 years ago but look at it another way Dylan Napa and Josh McGuire are nailed on Queensland reps. The depth really just isn’t there.

As opposed to the superstars such as Scott Tronc and grant did in the 80’s, Darren fritz and Adrian Vowles in the 90’s and Chris Beattie and Danny Nutley in the 2000’s.
Depth is fine, depth will grow with expansion.

 

[Pommy]

As opposed to the superstars such as Scott Tronc and grant did in the 80’s, Darren fritz and Adrian Vowles in the 90’s and Chris Beattie and Danny Nutley in the 2000’s.
Depth is fine, depth will grow with expansion.

I’m for expansion but more teams in Sydney is not expansion.