Round 23 v Broncos - Game Day Thread

[Chipmunk]

I actually reckon Mannah played his best footy early in his career when he came off the bench

Probably helped being in a team with Cayless in it and Fui at his peak.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

Is Mannah not NRL level or is it that he has captained our loser side for a few years?

 

[Chipmunk]

Is Mannah not NRL level or is it that he has captained our loser side for a few years?

I think he is NRL standard, at his current salary cap expenditure, of a team that expects to finish bottom 8.

 

[strider]

I think he has good and average periods - just like every other nrl prop

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

Surely most NRL teams would find a spot for him. Whether he starts or not and salary aside.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Did you mean Arthur prefer's Mannah starting? We were talking about whether Alvaro performed better and is a better 2017 starting option than Mannah (if we recruit an additional middle forward).

Or have you changed your tune around again?

#poulogic

Arthur strongly prefers Mannah starting to Mannah off the bench. His preference for Alvaro starting over coming off the bench is apparently less strong.

See? No circular logic, no changed tune. You need to stop seeing what you want to see and just stick with what was said.

 

[Chipmunk]

Surely most NRL teams would find a spot for him. Whether he starts or not and salary aside.

He would probably be in the top 5 middle forwards (or top 17) at most clubs, but how many of our middle forwards would be in the top 3 middle forwards (or starting 13) at most other clubs?

Parra's biggest issue is that we lack middle forwards who could match the best two to three middle forwards at most clubs. We need at least two middle forwards who are better than we currently have.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

He would probably be in the top 5 middle forwards (or top 17) at most clubs, but how many of our middle forwards would be in the top 3 middle forwards (or starting 13) at most other clubs?

Parra's biggest issue is that we lack middle forwards who could match the best two to three middle forwards at most clubs. We need at least two middle forwards who are better than we currently have.

I dunno but if he's in the top five middle forwards for most clubs then he's OK. Maybe he shouldn't be our captain though.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I'm talking about future options, for 2017.

You asked for some stats indicating that our other middle forwards had a better game than Mannah last night - you were given those.

I never once asked for stats that prove one player is 'better' than another. I believe we are comparing players all roughly on the same level (solid first graders) - just with different strengths and weaknesses. You seem to think that the fact Mannah always starts means he is seen as 'better' than the forwards who sometimes/usually come off the bench. It just means he is better suited to starting than coming off the bench, according to Arthur's stated preference for quick interchange forwards.

Mannah seems like he can only play one role - that solid starting forward who carries into a fresh, aggressive defence and works hard through decent minutes. Alvaro can play that role but can also play the high intensity role off the bench in relatively limited minutes. Wicks can play that bench role but he is also capable of playing a more defensive role with long minutes and 40+ tackles. Though he does miss a few.

You then questioned whether one game's stats can be used for a conclusion, and then failed to offer up comparative stats yourself.

If one game's stats prove nothing why would you expect me to offer stats from another game?

Then you started to claim that what Arthur's past selection are proof of what Arthur should select in the future... and attempt to reframe discussion about past practices instead of adding anything to the analysis and discussion of our future options.

I reckon our coach's future choices are likely to resemble his past choices. I also don't think Mannah has shown anything that would warrant a change in his role in our squad.

Lol, you can't even argue your watertight truisms properly... but you deserve a biscuit for trying.

#poulogic

You tend to start refereeing a discussion when you run out of bullshit to twist. Looks like it's happening here again.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Where's your f**cking proof that he can't. You're the one claiming he is incapable of providing impact and yet you haven't provided a single iota of evidence to support your argument.

Merely lack of evidence that he can. I suppose he maybe could provide some impact if he put on some weight but that's not how Arthur has used him in 62 games. In fact the last time Mannah came off the bench was Kearney's last game back in 2012.

Several posters have argued alvaro and Mannah are similar players and the fact Alvaro has come off the bench indicates BA isn't adverse to having that kind of player come off the bench.

Given Arthur has generally started Alvaro this year, with guys like Wicks and Terepo off the bench, tells me that the times Alvaro has come off the bench have been about easing him into the team more than his impact value.

FMD Pou, it's not that hard to comprehend.

lol irony

 

[Poupou Escobar]

He would probably be in the top 5 middle forwards (or top 17) at most clubs, but how many of our middle forwards would be in the top 3 middle forwards (or starting 13) at most other clubs?

Parra's biggest issue is that we lack middle forwards who could match the best two to three middle forwards at most clubs. We need at least two middle forwards who are better than we currently have.

Actually we have some of the best defensive middle forwards in the NRL - for work rate and tackle effectiveness (both measurable by stats) as well as line speed.

It would be nice to have a middle forward more capable than ours of breaking tackles and/or getting quick play-the-balls, and we might have signed one in Vave. That would mean we don't need to rely on our edge forwards for attacking ruck speed. But in our structure the middle is mostly about defence. That seems to be Arthur's priority.

 

[Eelementary]

I wish we would just sign JWH.

He'd help our defence up the guts.

 

[Eelementary]

I wish we would just sign JWH.

He'd help our defence up the guts.

Well, he'd help our intensity, at least...

He does tend to miss a few...

 

[Happy MEel]

Merely lack of evidence that he can.

So none?
I have plenty of evidence that BA is happy for a reliable worker to come off the bench in Alvaro.

Given Arthur has generally started Alvaro this year, with guys like Wicks and Terepo off the bench, tells me that the times Alvaro has come off the bench have been about easing him into the team more than his impact value.

I genuinely don't have the number of times Alvaro started vs coming off the bench and in which games. If you do, I'd be interested to know to see if BA is happy enough to have a reliable worker starting and off the bench. If you don't, you're talking out of your ass.

lol irony

I'll hold off replying to this until I get a reply to my query above.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

So none?
I have plenty of evidence that BA is happy for a reliable worker to come off the bench in Alvaro.

Was he happy with it or just satisfied? Why is Alvaro starting over Wicks most weeks?

I genuinely don't have the number of times Alvaro started vs coming off the bench and in which games. If you do, I'd be interested to know to see if BA is happy enough to have a reliable worker starting and off the bench. If you don't, you're talking out of your ass.

I'll hold off replying to this until I get a reply to my query above.

http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/matches/Custom/Ny0xNjc3LS0tLS0tLTIxNjM2LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ==

Like I said, if Arthur wanted that type of player on the bench then Alvaro would have come off the bench more often. He has started for Wenty more times this year than he has come off the bench in the NRL. And he has started in the NRL more than he has started for Wenty. Under the new interchange rules he is a starter. Just like Mannah.

 

[phantom eel]

Arthur strongly prefers Mannah starting to Mannah off the bench. His preference for Alvaro starting over coming off the bench is apparently less strong.

See? No circular logic, no changed tune. You need to stop seeing what you want to see and just stick with what was said.

So back to the original question then... what have you got to add to dicsussion about whether Mannah will remain a first choice starting prop in 2017, given the possibility of recruiting another middle forward (in addition to Vave) and Mannah's (recent and anticipated) decline versus Alvarao's (recent and anticipated) development.

Given the above dynamic - and further changes in interchange rules - are you open to the possibility that Arthur may chance his preference for 2017, from what he has preferred in 2016?

Please feel free to avoid referring to the past and truisms, in your contribution to discussion regarding the future.

 

[Happy MEel]

Was he happy with it or just satisfied? Why is Alvaro starting over Wicks most weeks?


http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/matches/Custom/Ny0xNjc3LS0tLS0tLTIxNjM2LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ==

Like I said, if Arthur wanted that type of player on the bench then Alvaro would have come off the bench more often. He has started for Wenty more times this year than he has come off the bench in the NRL. And he has started in the NRL more than he has started for Wenty. Under the new interchange rules he is a starter. Just like Mannah.

Thanks for posting these stats. They are useful but you haven't factored Mannah's absence into your argument.

Looking at your stats, Alvaro has played 13 games with 4 coming off the bench. However, of the 9 games he started, 7 of those Mannah was injured.

Of the 10 games Mannah has been available, Alvaro has come off the bench 4 times, started twice and played NSW cup 4 times.

What this tells us is that BA absolutely prefers one high work rate toiler starting (which I agree with), not that he doesn't like another on the bench. Hardly an indication BA is adverse to a worker type prop on the bench.

 

[phantom eel]

Excellently said HM.

What this comes down to is when (Arthur will judge that) Alvaro surpasses Mannah in the pecking order. Based on this season I think we'd all agree they're about equal now.

If Arthur thinks Alvaro is developing while Mannah is declining, it is easy to see that he would give Alvaro the starting toiler front row spot, and Mannah - in the final year of his contract - would shift (from his previous usage) into the toiler bench middle forward spot that Arthur has sometimes had Alvaro utilise this season.

Personally I think the change would be good for Mannah, and (ironically?) we might get to see some better footy out of him next season.

By sitting on the fence and only referring to the past, Pou seems to think things will just always stay the same. Until they don't. At which point Pou just back's the coach's judgement - having added nothing to our preceeding discussions about the possibilities, before they are authorised by the "commanding officer"

#leadership

 

[Happy MEel]

Excellently said HM.

What this comes down to is when (Arthur will judge that) Alvaro surpasses Mannah in the pecking order. Based on this season I think we'd all agree they're about equal now.

If Arthur thinks Alvaro is developing while Mannah is declining, it is easy to see that he would give Alvaro the starting toiler front row spot, and Mannah - in the final year of his contract - would shift (from his previous usage) into the toiler bench middle forward spot that Arthur has sometimes had Alvaro utilise this season.

Personally I think the change would be good for Mannah, and (ironically?) we might get to see some better footy out of him next season.

By sitting on the fence and only referring to the past, Pou seems to think things will just always stay the same. Until they don't. At which point Pou just back's the coach's judgement - having added nothing to our preceeding discussions about the possibilities, before they are authorised by the "commanding officer"

#leadership

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Thanks for posting these stats. They are useful but you haven't factored Mannah's absence into your argument.

Looking at your stats, Alvaro has played 13 games with 4 coming off the bench. However, of the 9 games he started, 7 of those Mannah was injured.

Of the 10 games Mannah has been available, Alvaro has come off the bench 4 times, started twice and played NSW cup 4 times.

What this tells us is that BA absolutely prefers one high work rate toiler starting (which I agree with), not that he doesn't like another on the bench. Hardly an indication BA is adverse to a worker type prop on the bench.

No he just prefers them starting