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Smith v Hagan - who is Mr Popular?

Stranger

Coach
Messages
18,682
I can't complain about hagan, he too is rebuilding Parramatta after the fiasco last year, and has made the tough decisions when needed.

:? :? :? Rebuilding what? The team was already there. JT put it all together?
 

Ron Jeremy

Coach
Messages
25,665
Stranger said:
:? :? :? Rebuilding what? The team was already there. JT put it all together?

We lost 14 first graders at the end of last year, these included: Morrison, Widders, Petersen, Delaney, J Williams, Wade Mckinnon, John Morris, Luke O'Dwyer, Michael Vella, the others i forget.

We lost alot of good player last year but have been able to blood juniors and they have been able to step up.
 

Ron Jeremy

Coach
Messages
25,665
lol, apart from Williams the others had there moments with us, good and bad, however pretty hard at the time seeing them leave, i had my doubts as to whether we would be succesful this year, we have been to a degree.
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Ron, how comw when I offer up these players as evidence that Smith was good at bringing through players, or improving older ones, I am laughed off because they are 'crap', but when it comes to Hagan he is rebuilding our club after losing these players. You change your argument when it suits.

Let's face it, the backbone of our squad is still here. One of the (possible) criticisms of Smith is that he liked to have a lot of average-good quality players instead of stars. So the players we lost at the end of last year were all replaceable.


Look mate, this is the thing - no-one here is denying Hagan is doing well at Parra, and that Newcastle is in a bad way. What Newy fans are saying is that Hagan's legacy for their club is one Premiership and then a gradual disintegration of their quality (and in this instance I think we should probably listen to Newcastle supporters over our own opinions, after all they are the ones who watch their team week-to-week). And all I've (and many others) have said about Smith is that he did a great job in many aspects for our club. I doubt there are many Parra fans that aren't happy with the switch. And a lot of Newcastle fans are still confident that Smith can be good for them too.

Now, before you go off half-cocked in response, I will say that it is very difficult to tell just how much of Newcastle's problems were down to the Joey Johns factor. I doubt there is a single person in Rugby League that wouldn't revolve their team around him, and I think those that attacked Hagan as letting Johns coach the team are being a bit silly, unless that have direct knowledge of him doing so. Of course the greatest player of all time is going to have a big say in how things are done!!

So, the thing is - none of us really knew how Hagan was going to go this year at Parra, did we? (And on a side note, the performance of the Qld team under Hagan was one of the reasons I was concerned at the switch - he took an extremely talented team and gave them a one-dimensional 'second-man' attack. Funny, because we use that move quite a bit too now, but we also have a lot more variety to go with it. Hey - maybe Hages is getting better at this coaching thing?)
And I'd say a lot of people have been surprised at Parra's performance this year. But that doesn't make Hagan better than Smith, just like if Smith has Newcastle charging next year that won't make him better than Hagan. They are different, and your repeated Smith-bashing and Hagan-loving have been incredibly over the top, and pretty much based solely on an internet war that began when the swap was announced. Now you are just trying to make hay while the sun shines.

It's important to realise that both clubs needed different things, and both clubs have probably got what they want. This ridiculous argument that one is better than the other is just that - a ridiculous argument. They are different men for different times. Ask us poor suffering Parra fans if we'd take a Premiership and then 6 years of inconsistency, and even a gradual reduction in our overall quality, and I guarantee you that - almost to a man - we will take it. Newcastle, on the other hand, need different things.

It would have been interesting to see how Newcastle would have gone had he stayed there, but they obviously didn't feel he was the man for the job. He was probably too close to some senior players, just as Smith was at Parra.

Anyway, the one thing I have resented in this whole debate, is that Smith's legacy at the Eels is written off, simply because after rebuilding the club for the 05 season (and for the third time since he came to Parra) we had all that behind-the-scenes sh*t affect us in 06, giving his detractors ammunition that he was lucky in 05. It's nonsense.
 

Stagger eel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
65,609
as I said on many occasions the arguements on both sides of the fence is just plain dumd, Knights fans need to let go of the "blame Hagan" excuse and Parra fans need to realise the good things Smith has done for our club.

so let me get this straight, Hagan inherited a team minus 14 players of firstgrade experiance inwhich 10 of them are currently playing fg at other clubs and signs 4 players who at the time were in the rugby league wilderness and he inherits a squad???? FMD!! how can anyone actually be that stupid to think that.

Meantime Smithy gets a squad that finished 4th the year before and after an unfortunate season coniciding injuries and other factors is currently languishing second last on the table and yet the bloke who steers the team to 4th last year is getting blamed for it???

I must be missing something.
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
eelavation said:
so let me get this straight, Hagan inherited a team minus 14 players of firstgrade experiance inwhich 10 of them are currently playing fg at other clubs and signs 4 players who at the time were in the rugby league wilderness and he inherits a squad???? FMD!! how can anyone actually be that stupid to think that.

I'll tell you why it's not stupid - it's about the difference (or at least the difference this year) between the two ideologies.

Smith loved to have a bunch of fringe first graders playing lower grades (or first grade obviously) so that he had plenty of cover for injuries. In seasons like 05 he could afford to bring guys in without actually losing much in terms of playing quality. It has always been the way of Smith - his teams have never been known for their superstars. Likewise his clubs have always had fresh faces ready for the step up.

Take a look at our team, and ask yourself how many have been blooded this year.

Burt
Hayne
Reddy
Inu - one.
Tahu
B.Smith
Grothe
Finch- purchase
T.Smith
Cayless
Marsh/Piggy
Fui
Cannings
Hindies
Robinson
Wagon
Mateo - practically a rookie but has been in the system for a long time.
Cordoba

As you can see, out team is FULL of veterans. Now, we get to the others - Weller, Blake, Junior. These guys have all been used as cover for injuries. Hagan himself stated that he was surprised at how much quality he had on his hands here. That's why he brought Lowrie with him and Lowrie has barely seen the pitch. As Parra fans we knew we had players better than Lowrie, and it didn't take Hagan that long to work it out.

Now, please don't think I'm bagging Hagan here. On the contrary, he has done a great job with what he's got. But our year was ALWAYS going to come down to how many injuries we had and how the younger blokes filled the holes. In the past we had fringe first-graders to fill the holes. This year we have had to rely on kids. And it has cost us at times (Green not setting up for a FG v Bulldogs stands out), but not too much.
 

Stagger eel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
65,609
I take your point but it's still a weaker squad depth wise and I won't be copping crap from Newcastle fans as we did [see swamp thread on eels forum] as we did from bitter Newcastle fans who blame the bloke before for their troubles.

both clubs needed a change both clubs will be better for it but one of them obviously needs more time than the other and it's fare to say maybe Smith brought it on himself by losing all respect from his players and who knows maybe in 12 months time the shoe might be on the other foot and I'm sure Newcastle fans will remind us how sh*t :roll: a coach Hages as some eels fans are doing the same to them regarding Smith..because heaven forbid as fans were all qualified to judge aren't we??? :roll:
 

badav

Bench
Messages
2,601
Ron Jeremy said:
Unbelievable

Great response. But really its not quite unbelievable. Because in the end both Hagan and Lang werent retained by the respective clubs. They were replaced. And since then both the coaches that replaced them have come in and had to tear the place apart. What does that tell you??

Let me tell you this. Good coaches keep sides competitive over time. You are like a dragons fan. Your brain has turned to mush due to the fact that you havent seen your team win a premiership for the last 20+ years.
 

Misty Bee

First Grade
Messages
7,082
badav said:
Good coaches keep sides competitive over time.

Good point. Therefore, please explain 2002, 2003 and 2004? 2005 was better, but halfway through that seaon Parra were struggling big time. Remember the fan miscontent and all the media speculation on Smith's future?

At that time Smith was making rediculous selections - sticking with a woeful Daniel Wagon week after week, because it was good fiscalpolicy to keep higher paid players in first grade, rather than wasting that money by playing them in reserve grade, or not at all.

That was also the time Smith blooded Ben and Tim Smith. They won the minor premiership, and pissed it up against the wall v the Cowboys.

Then Fitzgerald announced that Smith wasn't going to be resigned. Smith then spent 6 months carrying on like a pork chop, before resigning. He failed to psychologically prepare the side for the 06 season. When JT took over, the place was in a mess.

Smith last 'rebuilt' a club back in the better days of 97-99. Apart from the minor premiership in 05, the period from 2001 to the present has arguably been better for Hagan. Hages had rotten luck when Joey broke his neck in a semi in 02, and Smith likewise when Hindy was injured late in 05. However, With Johns, Hagan always had a competetive side. Parra at or near full strength since 01 only performed in the last 8 rounds of 2005.

I;m happy with Hagan - whilst aware he isn't the wonder coach like we had with jack Gibson. But Hagan will have the side on fire if he makes a grand final, because he gives his players confidence. We won't see a repeat of Smith's classic 12 man practice for a possible GF sin bin in a semi - because he's not confident his players can handle it. In Kris Inu I already see the confidence that no eel got under Smith in a decade.
 

Red Bear

Referee
Messages
20,882
Eelementary said:
So if Hagan was "handed" the Premiership-winning team, and if his prdecesor was so great...How come he won the title that the man before him couldn't in 2000?
Cos it takes more than a year to creat e a premiership usually. Warren Ryan instilled the forward pack that allowed Johns to run riot. Since then Newcastle have gotten worse and worse to the point where they were left in a horrid situation, patched up by the remarkable performances of A Johns
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Misty Bee said:
Good point. Therefore, please explain 2002, 2003 and 2004?

It's true that Parra's 2002-04 weren't the best. We had built a side that performed a lot better in 00 and 01 than many had expected, and the salary cap, combined with the rule changes to the policing of the ruck and ten metres, put us in trouble. They actually changed the rules because of Brian Smith!!

Then Ricky's boys took over and Brian - depending on who you talked to - either a) made a mistake in his buying policy, or b) was unfairly treated by the rulemakers and was left with a side not fit to take advantage of the rules. I'm happy for him to not be given the benefit of the doubt here, but some will argue that he was unfairly punished by sudden changes in interpretations.



2005 was better, but halfway through that seaon Parra were struggling big time. Remember the fan miscontent and all the media speculation on Smith's future?
At that time Smith was making rediculous selections - sticking with a woeful Daniel Wagon week after week, because it was good fiscalpolicy to keep higher paid players in first grade, rather than wasting that money by playing them in reserve grade, or not at all.

That was also the time Smith blooded Ben and Tim Smith. They won the minor premiership, and pissed it up against the wall v the Cowboys.
](*,)

C'mon Misty Bee, you can do better than Ron Jeremy, surely.

So, Brian Smith took his side to the Minor Premiership in a year that there was speculation that he would be sacked? Surely you can see that this might actually help the arguments of those who are sticking by Smith at the moment?

And the people that were calling for Wagon's sacking have about as much idea as the people who were calling for his sacking again at the start of this year. In fact, this year it's more warranted because we have a player like Feleti who adds something different to the pack, and one of either Ian H, Wags, or Robbo might go. Your assertion that he left Wagon on for economic reason is complete speculation.

And, winning the Minor Premiership isn't exactly a failure.


Then Fitzgerald announced that Smith wasn't going to be resigned. Smith then spent 6 months carrying on like a pork chop, before resigning. He failed to psychologically prepare the side for the 06 season. When JT took over, the place was in a mess.
This has some weight. It's quite possible that Smith did this. Though speculation again, the things that he has said, and the way he responded publicly, make this quite possible.

Whether he found it difficult to deal with, whether the players gave him less respect, who knows? It wasn't an ideal situtation, and though he must take plenty of blame for the way things went, the board aren't totally innocent here either.

And the place wasn't in a mess. Our first grade team may have been 'in a mess', but the 'place' wasn't. There's a difference. Souths were in a mess - it has taken two years for them to get back to anywhere near a decent side and operation. It's kinda like Fittler and the Roosters - Fittler hasn't turned the Roosters club around, he's turned the first grade team around. The club is still being operated in a professional manner by its leaders, and always was. Just as Parra's structure (set up by Smith) was still operating properly.


Smith last 'rebuilt' a club back in the better days of 97-99.
Wrong.

Smith rebuilt the 'club' once.

He has rebuilt the first grade team at least three times. First - when he arrived. Second, after the Canterbury Four left. Third, for 2005.


We won't see a repeat of Smith's classic 12 man practice for a possible GF sin bin in a semi
There was nothing wrong with that tactic - it's called preparation. It was innovative and a good idea. If we had made the GF and gone a man down he would have been labelled a genius.

The negative about it was that he said he was partially motivated to do it because he didn't want to risk Cayless for those last few minutes. That showed that he was worried, not excited. That was bad. He should never have said that.


- because he's not confident his players can handle it. In Kris Inu I already see the confidence that no eel got under Smith in a decade.
While I believe that Kris Inu and Hayne's confidence is very much inbuilt, I agree. I think Hagan is excited by the idea of Finals footy and that that will be passed on to the troops.

Please note Misty - in case you attack me as a Smith-lover and Hagan-hate like Ron Jeremy did, I just want to say that all I am doing is giving the other side to the Smith argument, as I think some of the things that happened at the club have soured some people's attitude towards him to the point that they are not thinking clearly on the issue. Therefore, I intentionally cut out your comments comparing the two coaches records over the last few years only because I think it means nothing, and their records are impossible to compare.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
26,499
firstly.. lol @ RJ. hopeless... absolutely hopeless.
secondly.. lol @ anyone who bothered to argue with him after about page 6 or 7. dead set, he obviously has an agenda and no real clue, it wasn't worth any of your time trying to convince him otherwise.

the coach swap was great for both teams - for different reasons. you're all comparing apples with oranges.. or even bananas. i hope for parra's sake they don't keep hages around for more than about 3 years - because unless he has learned a lot about where he went wrong at newcastle - he will end up running you guys into the ground - much the same he did to us. i also hope we don't keep smith around any longer than his current 3 season contract - as he has been brought in with a specific goal which he can achieve in his time (in fact, he's 6 months to a year ahead of schedule now due to johns' retirement).

this thread absolutely stinks of agendas and ill feelings. very little objectivity at all. as a knights fan i can't wait until next year to see our promising juniors and all the newcomers have a run around and make this horrid year a distant memory.
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
perverse said:
firstly.. lol @ RJ. hopeless... absolutely hopeless.
secondly.. lol @ anyone who bothered to argue with him after about page 6 or 7. dead set, he obviously has an agenda and no real clue, it wasn't worth any of your time trying to convince him otherwise.

LOL. I'm not really arguing to convince him - I know its impossible. I just get frustrated when I read things that are a total misrepresentation of what went on at Parra.
Actually, I don't even get frustrated. I don't know, I just like to set the record straight I suppose.
 

Ron Jeremy

Coach
Messages
25,665
perverse said:
firstly.. lol @ RJ. hopeless... absolutely hopeless.
secondly.. lol @ anyone who bothered to argue with him after about page 6 or 7. dead set, he obviously has an agenda and no real clue, it wasn't worth any of your time trying to convince him otherwise.

the coach swap was great for both teams - for different reasons. you're all comparing apples with oranges.. or even bananas. i hope for parra's sake they don't keep hages around for more than about 3 years - because unless he has learned a lot about where he went wrong at newcastle - he will end up running you guys into the ground - much the same he did to us. i also hope we don't keep smith around any longer than his current 3 season contract - as he has been brought in with a specific goal which he can achieve in his time (in fact, he's 6 months to a year ahead of schedule now due to johns' retirement).

this thread absolutely stinks of agendas and ill feelings. very little objectivity at all. as a knights fan i can't wait until next year to see our promising juniors and all the newcomers have a run around and make this horrid year a distant memory.

LOL at perverse for dragging me back. I have no agenda and everything i said was the truth.

And speaking of agendas........Hagan?:roll:
 

Ron Jeremy

Coach
Messages
25,665
goboggo said:
LOL. I'm not really arguing to convince him - I know its impossible. I just get frustrated when I read things that are a total misrepresentation of what went on at Parra.
Actually, I don't even get frustrated. I don't know, I just like to set the record straight I suppose.

So what wasn't right then? the fact that we lost all these players and brought no one of any significance even though we weren't on the brink of the salary cap? or the fact that Newcastle were very competitive until Joey was injured? what was it then?
 

salivor

First Grade
Messages
9,804
Ron Jeremy said:
LOL at perverse for dragging me back. I have no agenda and everything i said was the truth.

And speaking of agendas........Hagan?:roll:

Apart from the parts where you were forced to backtrack. As a neutral who can't stand either club, it's quite clear you have an agenda and have the blinkers permanently mounted.
 

Ron Jeremy

Coach
Messages
25,665
goboggo said:
It's true that Parra's 2002-04 weren't the best. We had built a side that performed a lot better in 00 and 01 than many had expected, and the salary cap, combined with the rule changes to the policing of the ruck and ten metres, put us in trouble. They actually changed the rules because of Brian Smith!!

Salary cap? what the....

And yes rule changed as i have stated disrupted Brians coaching!

Then Ricky's boys took over and Brian - depending on who you talked to - either a) made a mistake in his buying policy, or b) was unfairly treated by the rulemakers and was left with a side not fit to take advantage of the rules. I'm happy for him to not be given the benefit of the doubt here, but some will argue that he was unfairly punished by sudden changes in interpretations.

He made a mistake with buying eg Muckett, Muspratt etc It took brian a couple of years to readjust, where as other sides eg Cantebury, brisbane...well the better run sides adjusted straight away to the changes.




C'mon Misty Bee, you can do better than Ron Jeremy, surely.

No he cant

So, Brian Smith took his side to the Minor Premiership in a year that there was speculation that he would be sacked? Surely you can see that this might actually help the arguments of those who are sticking by Smith at the moment?

The speculation developed from 2003,04, and hence why Smith went on a recruitment frenzy to save his arse and to avoid il feeling from supporters.

And the people that were calling for Wagon's sacking have about as much idea as the people who were calling for his sacking again at the start of this year.

I'll admit wagons game has changed quite abit since Brian left. Not saying it was a BS issue, but maybe his role is now being used differently.

In fact, this year it's more warranted because we have a player like Feleti who adds something different to the pack, and one of either Ian H, Wags, or Robbo might go. Your assertion that he left Wagon on for economic reason is complete speculation.

I agree somewhat with this, however i can understand Mistys view that Wagon wasn't playing as good then as now.

And, winning the Minor Premiership isn't exactly a failure.

No it's not, its a great achievement, but if your that great of a side you should win when it matters eg Cantebury, Brisbane.


Whether he found it difficult to deal with, whether the players gave him less respect, who knows? It wasn't an ideal situtation, and though he must take plenty of blame for the way things went, the board aren't totally innocent here either.

Now its the boards fault?

And the place wasn't in a mess. Our first grade team may have been 'in a mess', but the 'place' wasn't. There's a difference. Souths were in a mess - it has taken two years for them to get back to anywhere near a decent side and operation. It's kinda like Fittler and the Roosters - Fittler hasn't turned the Roosters club around, he's turned the first grade team around. The club is still being operated in a professional manner by its leaders, and always was. Just as Parra's structure (set up by Smith) was still operating properly.

Tell me about this structure..



He has rebuilt the first grade team at least three times. First - when he arrived. Second, after the Canterbury Four left. Third, for 2005.

And we still didn't achieve any success. I think it was more two though-97 & 2005. The other years Brian relied basically on the great juniors coming through, which i still maintain as once in a decade stuff and purchasing experience players to help guide them eg drew, Taylor etc.



Please note Misty - in case you attack me as a Smith-lover and Hagan-hate like Ron Jeremy did, I just want to say that all I am doing is giving the other side to the Smith argument, as I think some of the things that happened at the club have soured some people's attitude towards him to the point that they are not thinking clearly on the issue. Therefore, I intentionally cut out your comments comparing the two coaches records over the last few years only because I think it means nothing, and their records are impossible to compare.

lol you have signalled Smiths praises alot more in this thread then Hagans......

As i said that up untill 2006 he had my support, drag threads up if you like? but the mess he left our club in with the roster and juniors coming through didn't exactly do his coaching any justice, nor did his recruitment and retention in 2002-04
 

Ron Jeremy

Coach
Messages
25,665
salivor said:
Apart from the parts where you were forced to backtrack. As a neutral who can't stand either club, it's quite clear you have an agenda and have the blinkers permanently mounted.

Your wrong, but thats non-verbal communication characteristics in channels hey?

I like Brian as a person.

Salivor, and the Knights dont have the blinkers on either? eg blaming everything on Hagan?
 

Ron Jeremy

Coach
Messages
25,665
Misty Bee said:
Good point. Therefore, please explain 2002, 2003 and 2004? 2005 was better, but halfway through that seaon Parra were struggling big time. Remember the fan miscontent and all the media speculation on Smith's future?

At that time Smith was making rediculous selections - sticking with a woeful Daniel Wagon week after week, because it was good fiscalpolicy to keep higher paid players in first grade, rather than wasting that money by playing them in reserve grade, or not at all.

That was also the time Smith blooded Ben and Tim Smith. They won the minor premiership, and pissed it up against the wall v the Cowboys.

Then Fitzgerald announced that Smith wasn't going to be resigned. Smith then spent 6 months carrying on like a pork chop, before resigning. He failed to psychologically prepare the side for the 06 season. When JT took over, the place was in a mess.

Smith last 'rebuilt' a club back in the better days of 97-99. Apart from the minor premiership in 05, the period from 2001 to the present has arguably been better for Hagan. Hages had rotten luck when Joey broke his neck in a semi in 02, and Smith likewise when Hindy was injured late in 05. However, With Johns, Hagan always had a competetive side. Parra at or near full strength since 01 only performed in the last 8 rounds of 2005.

I;m happy with Hagan - whilst aware he isn't the wonder coach like we had with jack Gibson. But Hagan will have the side on fire if he makes a grand final, because he gives his players confidence. We won't see a repeat of Smith's classic 12 man practice for a possible GF sin bin in a semi - because he's not confident his players can handle it. In Kris Inu I already see the confidence that no eel got under Smith in a decade.

Without doubt the smartest reply in this thread.
 
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