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State of Origin 2K19 Discussion

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21,880
Playing in illegal teams coached by a gun

Then go off my earlier comparison of Mitchell Pearce. He doesn’t come close to that.

Fact is he’s playing origin & getting paid $1m per year, he’s being paid to produce and he isn’t.

Buck stops with him when you’re the star player.
 
Messages
21,880
He did have a nice kick into the corner that would often end up around the try line from the opposition 40 - 50 that disappeared completely.


I’d need to go back and look, but all I remember is mostly bombs. Doesn’t make any sense you’d stop doing that if you could repeatedly do it.
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,331
I’d need to go back and look, but all I remember is mostly bombs. Doesn’t make any sense you’d stop doing that if you could repeatedly do it.
Every year under Hook his kicking game seemed more and more restricted. With kicks that risked a bad result seemingly disappearing until his only option was a bomb. 2016 he had a bigger bag of tricks IMO.

He's doing a lot more risky kicks this season. Yet he is bagged out for it when they don't come off (Naturally). He's not going to improve at those kicks though without attempting them in games.

That's not to suggest he doesn't have flaws. But he has forced more drop outs this year than he did last year. So his short kicking game is improving. He also kicks early into space at times to set up for the following set. Problem is we often execute the kick well and nail the chase. Defend well early on. Only to give away a penalty and undo the work. Many of our halves tactics become pointless because of our discipline.
 
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21,880
Every year under Hook his kicking game seemed more and more restricted. With kicks that risked a bad result seemingly disappearing until his only option was a bomb. 2016 he had a bigger bag of tricks IMO.

He's doing a lot more risky kicks this season. Yet he is bagged out for it when they don't come off (Naturally). He's not going to improve at those kicks though without attempting them in games.

That's not to suggest he doesn't have flaws. But he has forced more drop outs this year than he did last year. So his short kicking game is improving. He also kicks early into space at times to set up for the following set. Problem is we often execute the kick well and nail the chase. Defend well early on. Only to give away a penalty and undo the work. Many of our halves tactics become pointless because of our discipline.


He has more forced drop outs which is good to see, but there’s not many points really coming from his kicks. The grubbers in particular I can’t think of a single try from them, which again I think comes down to vision.

Maloney pretty much beats him in every category of kicking. (Other then goal kicking obviously)


When he has to be the main guy, like last night, I think his kicking game is exposed.
 
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21,880
Try assists = 33rd

Try contributions = 27th

Total try involvements = 30th

Line break assists = 10th

The only good one is line break assists, the rest are terrible.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
Try assists = 33rd

Try contributions = 27th

Total try involvements = 30th

Line break assists = 10th

The only good one is line break assists, the rest are terrible.

If that is this season post maloneys as well. It would not be much better, Maloney has vision and ball playing ability and hes not creating any better than Nathan.
.
 
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21,880
If that is this season post maloneys as well. It would not be much better.

They’re better in two categories & worse in two. But the two he’s better at are probably the most important.

Maloney

Try assists = 23rd

TTI = 40th

TCB = 55th

LBA = 6th

I’m less concerned about Maloney though as he’s on the way out.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
They’re better in two categories & worse in two. But the two he’s better at are probably the most important.

Maloney

Try assists = 23rd

TTI = 40th

TCB = 55th

LBA = 6th

I’m less concerned about Maloney though as he’s on the way out.

Looks like our struggle is a big picture thing rather than individual. Our attacking structures suck if I'm judging those stats correct.
 
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21,880
Looks like our struggle is a big picture thing rather than individual. Our attacking structures suck if I'm judging those stats correct.

You need to look at past years too. Cleary has never had good try assist stats.

2016 - 8

2017 - 10

2018 - 9

2019 - 4

So he’s on track for pretty much the same, even with a new coach.


Good halves are in the mid to high teens for try assists.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
https://www.penrithpanthers.com.au/news/2019/06/06/cleary-hoping-for-another-crack-with-cody/

Cleary hoping for another crack with Cody

Nathan Cleary expects his position in the NSW team to come under scrutiny after Wednesday night's 18-14 lossin the opening Origin game of 2019 but hopes he and halves partner Cody Walker will be given a chance to help level the series in Perth.

Cleary admitted he needed to take greater control of the game in the second half but also revealed the confusion within the team after Walker was replaced by bench utility Jack Wighton in the 56th minute.
Wighton had not trained at five-eighth during the lead-up to his Origin debut, with NSW coach Brad Fittler planning to use him as a back-rower or centre but with the Maroons dominating the second half he felt the need to make the dramatic change.

"It's not ideal when you lose but I could have done a lot more I feel. That hurts after the game but in saying that, I tried my hardest and unfortunately we just didn't come through," Cleary said.

"The scrutiny always comes on the No.7, especially in Origin, so I'm prepared for it."

It was the first time Cleary had played with Walker and they were paired together after injuries to Sydney Roosters five-eighth Luke Keary, South Sydney halfback Adam Reynolds and Newcastle playmaker Mitchell Pearce on the eve of the NSW team's selection.
After dropping out-of-form Penrith five-eighth James Maloney, Fittler stuck by Cleary and chose Walker after his stunning form for South Sydney this season but the criticism of their pairing was that neither are organising playmakers for their Telstra Premiership teams.

Fittler is now expected to consider Pearce, Reynolds and Maloney for Origin II at Optus Stadium on June 23 but Cleary hopes he and Walker are given another chance.

"I think the best way to learn from each other is to play with each other. I feel like I've learned a fair bit about Cody," Cleary said.

"Unfortunately he went off in that second half. I don't know what happened to him. I didn't even know Cody was off until I saw Jack jump in. That was a bit of a mix-up but you've got to deal with that sort of stuff.
"It's the first time we've played together and it's building. Hopefully we can improve on the next couple of weeks."

With Walker on the left side of the NSW ruck inside Boyd Cordner, Latrell Mitchell and Josh Addo-Carr and Cleary on the right, both found it hard to get involved as the Blues attack was focused through the middle of the field.

Hooker Damien Cook made 115 metres from 13 dummy-half runs, while most of the 254 metres fullback James Tedesco ran with the ball began around the ruck, where NSW props David Klemmer and Paul Vaughan were making easy metres in the first half.

"The way the game played out we [Walker and Cleary] were split on either side," Cleary said.
"Cooky and Teddy were just roaming that middle. Cody had some really good touches at the end as we came back, but unfortunately we just fell a bit short."

Walker had five runs totalling 43 metres, while Cleary ran the ball 11 times and made 61 metres.

Cleary was responsible for most of NSW's kicking and made 335 metres from 12 kicks, including two bombs. With the Blues struggling to get out of their own end for much of the second half he often had to kick from inside his own half.

Cook kicked six times from dummy-half and forced Queensland's only goal-line drop-out, while Walker had one clearing kick and two grubbers.

After returning to the game for the last 10 minutes Walker combined with Rabbitohs team-mate Cameron Murray to put Trbojevic over in the 75th minute and give NSW hope of snatching a late win.
However, the Blues needed to make more of their first half dominance and after leading 8-0 at halftime they completed just 13 of 17 sets of possession in the second term to put themselves under enormous pressure.

"We were pretty happy with the 8-0 lead. It would have been nice to be a bit more up but I thought we were in a really commanding position and we had a good completion rate," Cleary said.

"In the second half we made a few too many errors and came up with poor defensive plays. We've got to play better. There were a few moments in that game where we slipped off a bit and Queensland made the most of it.
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,331
Try assists = 33rd

Try contributions = 27th

Total try involvements = 30th

Line break assists = 10th

The only good one is line break assists, the rest are terrible.
His linebreak assists and forced line drop outs suggest his kicks and passes are getting reasonable results... and the guys on the end of his passes and chasing kicks are doing a poor job at converting the opportunities into points.

Cleary has room to improve in all areas. But when you have tiny slow wingers, average fullbacks, centres not doing a good job etc. the halves creating opportunities are getting less results.

It applies too Jimmy too. Our short kicks should have far more tries than they do. But our team just dont chase well.
 
Messages
21,880
His linebreak assists and forced line drop outs suggest his kicks and passes are getting reasonable results... and the guys on the end of his passes and chasing kicks are doing a poor job at converting the opportunities into points.

Cleary has room to improve in all areas. But when you have tiny slow wingers, average fullbacks, centres not doing a good job etc. the halves creating opportunities are getting less results.

It applies too Jimmy too. Our short kicks should have far more tries than they do. But our team just dont chase well.


There's several other guys who aren't exactly in red hot teams either that have more try assists than him.

Moses 15

Morgan 13

Brooks 9

Hunt & Norman 9 each

Roberts 8

Hell even Kieran Foran has 6 and he missed 5 weeks

Plus what's his excuse in Origin when he has fast wingers? He doesn't have a single try or Line Break assist in his four games
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,331
There's several other guys who aren't exactly in red hot teams either that have more try assists than him.

Moses 15

Morgan 13

Brooks 9

Hunt & Norman 9 each

Roberts 8

Hell even Kieran Foran has 6 and he missed 5 weeks

Plus what's his excuse in Origin when he has fast wingers? He doesn't have a single try or Line Break assist in his four games
Our backline has been the worst this season. James Maloney is hardly a player with poor vision, attacking ability or x-factor and like Cleary he has suffered at creating tries too.

They create opportunities that could result in tries. But many end up being butchered.

As for Origin he looks to have been picked purely to execute the kicking game and hold his edge defensively. Pretty much a waste of a spot having him in the halves for such a minor role. But look at the way the form halves shit the bed... can't really drop him until Keary is fit. In a team littered with stars in good club form... many of them had absolute shockers. None moreso than Fittler though... his bench rotation was f**king putrid.

If all halves were fit... Keary would be my #7. He's proven his ability in grand finals.... so in Origin he could hopefully do the same. Hes clearly a class above Cleary and i hate that the best half in NSW grew up as a QLDer. But sadly we need to throw him in.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
Our backline has been the worst this season. James Maloney is hardly a player with poor vision, attacking ability or x-factor and like Cleary he has suffered at creating tries too.

They create opportunities that could result in tries. But many end up being butchered.

As for Origin he looks to have been picked purely to execute the kicking game and hold his edge defensively. Pretty much a waste of a spot having him in the halves for such a minor role. But look at the way the form halves shit the bed... can't really drop him until Keary is fit. In a team littered with stars in good club form... many of them had absolute shockers. None moreso than Fittler though... his bench rotation was f**king putrid.

If all halves were fit... Keary would be my #7. He's proven his ability in grand finals.... so in Origin he could hopefully do the same. Hes clearly a class above Cleary and i hate that the best half in NSW grew up as a QLDer. But sadly we need to throw him in.

I've quoted this comment elsewhere because it covers the topic pretty well.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
People saying Cleary didn't direct the team well I beg to differ. Here is a shot of when Cordner kicked in the second half. You'll see Cook running to the left of the play the ball and Cleary is on the other side with his arms up wondering what the he'll Cook is doing not giving him the ball.

20190606_184331.jpg
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
Love the commitment Oldy haha.

Haha yeah it's funny I just spotted that by accident while reading to my daughter with the TV on mute and immediately thought of people saying all day on Reddit and here he wasn't calling things. Clearly Cook thought he could run the team in the second half as halfback and hooker.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,991
Nrl rated Cleary a 7 and Walker a 5. Seems far more accurate from my perspective. But none of us know what Fittler wanted from Cleary.

I would think hooking Walker suggest Fittler wasn't happy with what he was doing... and he left Nathan out there so he obviously was better at his assigned job than Walker.

Last night proved NRL form doesn't mean much come Origin time. Some players are just more dependable and rise to big game situations.

Ie. Cleary was solid and doesnt buckle under pressure or let his team down.

While Walker who was arguably the form player in the competition looked lost in defence and just didn't look confident in attack.

Then you have Mitchell who was awful and easily outplayed by Morris who was pretty much picked due to no other options.

On NRL form guys like Morris and Cleary weren't really demanding selection. Yet the guys who were are the ones that let us down.
Morris has performed consistently well at rep level, so it was no surprise to me he played well. Mitchell is young and with that comes inconsistency.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,991
Playing in illegal teams coached by a gun
Dave, let's be real here. Nathan wa splaying in a gun team during SOO and yet he is 0 for 4 on attacking stats. Having said that , he played tough and tightened up the middle. Any other half and we may have scored more, but we would likely as not have conceded a lot more. His defence was outstanding and they run at him plenty of times.
 
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