The annual finals system debate thread

[bender]

Oh right I see what you mean. Would work a lot better as the top 4 are granteed a second chance.

No, the top 4 dont get a double chance. They only get a double chance to play in the semi final. The two semi finals the week before the Grand final are sudden death to all teams, regardless of where they finish. Under the ARL system, finishin 1-4 makes no difference whatsoever.

 

[aussies1st]

Even so, there is still one pointless game (pointless in that there is no reward for winning, in this case 4 v 5), and that is one pointless game too many.

Hasn't produced an unfair outcome?? The Tigers get no reward for beating the Cowboys - that's not unfair, you're right. It's ridiculous.

In the AFL system, the Tigers may well have lost to the Eels, and therefore ended up being in the same position they're in now anyway, but at least you could always look back and say they had the opportunity to progress. Their fate would have solely rested on the reults of their match vs Parra. In the McIntyre system, the Tigers v Cowboys match did not matter. And having a finals match where the result doesn't matter, that is unforgivable.

When the match was played there was the small chance that their match could see the loser elminated if results went against the trend.

 

[Kris_man]

When the match was played there was the small chance that their match could see the loser elminated if results went against the trend.

You said it - IF results went their way. Why should results have to go their way?? They won! The point is, there was a possibility (in fact, a probablity) that the result of the match did not matter. There should not even be such a possibilty, let alone a probablity.

bender - you're right, in the AFL system it makes no difference whether you finish 1st or 4th, apart from the home semi. That's a disadvantage of the system, for sure. But at least the results of each game matter, in fact, the results of each game are crucial, they mean everything. I still can't get over the fact that all the Tigers' jubilation on Friday night was for nothing.

 

[*Paul*]

I still can't get over the fact that all the Tigers' jubilation on Friday night was for nothing.

And it's not as though it hasn't happened before. In 2000, Canberra got a tougher opponent than the team they beat, and, as it happens, at their home ground. That was on a Friday, I left the ground saying to people "Winning this probably means nothing", five years it's still the same.

 

[Hass]

While it is probably not necessary to further highlight the flaws of the McIntyre system I will do so because I can't rest until this scourge is removed from the game.

The McIntyre system seems to survive because the best team has managed to win the comp in spite of it. This has allowed the administrators a false sense of security.

But to show what can happen we need only delve into the past when the McIntyre system was being used by the AFL.

In 1998 the following travesty took place:

Teams 1,2,3 and 4 all won in the opening week. This made the 4v5 and 3v6 matches dead rubbers.

4th placed Melbourne defeated 5th placed Adelaide 115 to 67.

3rd placed Sydney defeated 6th placed St. Kilda

In the second week the 3rd placed and 1st week finals winners Sydney played 5th placed and 1st week finals losers Adelaide. Given a chance they didn't deserve Adelaide went on to win.

They then met 2nd placed and 1st week finals winners by 70 points, the Western Bulldogs in the Preliminary Final. They won this one too and the Dog were out after one loss.

Adelaide then rode the wave to win the Grand Final and take out the Premiership.

Just imagine North Queensland doing the same this year in the NRL.

It was no co-incidence that midway through the next season the AFL decided to scrap the McIntyre system.

Cheers.

 

[aussies1st]

No, the top 4 dont get a double chance. They only get a double chance to play in the semi final. The two semi finals the week before the Grand final are sudden death to all teams, regardless of where they finish. Under the ARL system, finishin 1-4 makes no difference whatsoever.

I didn't mean they get a double chance. I meant the first week they defintiely can't be elminated.

 

[Mr Saab]

Why do people call it the AFL system when we used it first?

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
Why do people always say "AFL" system, when it was used 1st in the then ARL in 1995/6.

 

[Raider Azz]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
Why do people always say "AFL" system, when it was used 1st in the then ARL in 1995/6.

Err, because the AFL use it now?

What would you prefer us to call it, "The system that was used 1st in the then ARL in 1995/6 but is now used in the AFL"?

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

The "ARL" system is by far and away superior. Why Gallop and co can't see this is a concern.

Also, a top 5 would of provided an awesome finals series this year. It's by far and away the fairest system as well.

 

[Raider_69]

The current system has major flaws.

Ultimately, last nights match will have meant nothing. Only momentum will have come out of it because it may turn out that the Cowboys have the better match up next week.

I remember in 2000 when the 4th placed Raiders beat the 5th placed Panthers. And what was the Raiders reward? A match up with the 2nd placed Roosters at the SFS whereas the Panthers played the 7th placed Eels.

Yeah, great system.

i too recall that farce
we win and the panthers lose, we are rewarded with playing a better team, they (the panthers) are punished by playing a team worse then them :roll:

 

[Mr Saab]

Err, because the AFL use it now?

What would you prefer us to call it, "The system that was used 1st in the then ARL in 1995/6 but is now used in the AFL"?

call it is the ARL system if need be. Most on here are intelligent (i use that term loosely) to understand

 

[grayham]

.

bender - you're right, in the AFL system it makes no difference whether you finish 1st or 4th, apart from the home semi. That's a disadvantage of the system, for sure. But at least the results of each game matter, in fact, the results of each game are crucial, they mean everything. I still can't get over the fact that all the Tigers' jubilation on Friday night was for nothing.

Thats an important point. The AFL system on its own is not perfect, but the AFL system plus home finals all the way to the end is the best top 8 solution. (The AFL stop short of home finals for the grand final though)
Every game means something (fighting for home ground advantage, or to stay in), and every game is against a team within 4 ladder positions of yourself.......and you know exactly who you'll meet and where in coming games.

 

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

i like the ryan system, except with a few modifications

1st week (Left side is home side)

A=1 V 4
B=2 V 3

C=5 V 8
D=6 V 7

Highest ranking winner goes to week 3

Lowest ranking winner eliminated

2nd Week (left side is home side)

2nd highest seeded winner V 2rd Lowest seeded Loser

Highest seeded Loser V Lowest seeded Winner

2nd Highest seeded loser V 3rd highest seeded winner

Losers eliminated, winners proceed

3rd Week (left side is home side)

Highest seeded winner (from week 1) V Lowest seeded winner (from week 3)

Highest seeded winner (from week 3) V 2nd Highest seeded winner (from week 3)

Losers elimated, winners Proceed

4th Week (neutral venue)

Winners from week 3 verse each other.






Now i shall show you what would happen in my Finals format if it were for this year, and if the higher seeded opponent always won.

Week 1

1st Qualiying Final = Eels (1) V Tigers (4) at Parramatta Stadium (assume eels win)

2nd Qualifying Final = Dragons (2) V Broncos (3) at WIN Stadium (assume dragons win)

1st Elimination Final = Cowboys (5) V Sea Eagles (8) at Dairy Farmers Stadium (assume cowboys win)

2nd Elimination Final = Storm (6) V Sharks (7) at Olympic Park (assume storm win)


Parramatta (1) proceed to Preliminary Final

Manly (8) eliminated

Week 2

Semi Final 1 = Dragons (2) V Sharks (7) at WIN Stadium (assume dragons win)

SF 2 = Broncos (3) V Storm (6) at Suncorp Stadium (assume broncos win)

SF 3 = Tigers (4) V Cowboys (5) at Telstra Stadium (assume tigers win)

Dragons, Broncos and Tigers all go to preliminary Final

Sharks, Storm, Cowboys all eliminated

Week 3

Preliminary Final 1 = Eels (1) V Tigers (4) at Parramatta Stadium (assume eels win)
Preliminary Final 2 = Dragons (2) V Broncos (3) at WIN Stadium (assume eels win)

Week 4

GF = Eels (1) V Dragons (2) at Telstra Stadium (assume eels win)

Parramatta are Premiers




You will find that Week 3 is a repaet of week 1, but that WILL ONLY HAPPEN IF EVERY RESULT GOES TO SEEDINGS

This system gives 1 more game in wk 2, and ensures top 4 cannot be eliminated in the 1st week, and also gives just reward for the Minor premiers if they win

 

[dice]

Firstly, I want to say that I am neither a Parra or Saints supporters. I would actually love to see a Cowboys vs Tigers final.

But I really think the NRL finals system is total crap and disadvantages the top teams. Playing 7th or 8th followed by a week off is a very poor preparation to play a sudden death game against a team that has had two games against tougher opponents.

If the NRL want to "reward" the top teams by giving them the week off at least give them a tough game in the first week as is done in the AFL.

 

[Carlito]

yes, it disadvantages chokers

 

[BuffaloRules]

Normlly the Roosters actually get into the GF before choking....

 

[KFC]

In 04 1st and 2nd made the GF.

In 03 1st and 2nd made the GF.

This year is an anomaly.

 

[BuffaloRules]

In 04 1st and 2nd made the GF.

In 03 1st and 2nd made the GF.

This year is an anomaly.

Yeah.. I agree.

I think 1 and 2 made the GF in 02 as well.

If Parra and St George were good enough they would have made it, Mcintyre system or not.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

The reason teams get rewarded with the bye is to have a rest, recover from injuries etc. Usually this works out well with the top teams going through. You cannot conclusively tell me that the bye is a negative. It quite clearly has positives and negatives that more or less cancel each other that.

The Cowboys have beaten the minor premiers and hence they have earnt their place in the GF. Unfortunately this year's minor premiers were uncommonly crap (largely due to the closeness of the competition), but that's just how it has panned out.

 

[Panthers_God]

McIntyre system gives a huge advantage to the top placed teams when compared to the bottom placed teams.

If you come 8th, you have to win 4 games in a row pretty much against the top four teams as compared to 1st who verse 8th and win another game and there in the grand final.