The Forbidden Game-insightful book on what has & can happen

[madunit]

Oh dear. You can't help yourself.

 

[magpie4ever]

Oh dear. You can't help yourself.

Union is invading from the inside.:lol:

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

LJC,

You believe that there is a conspiracy against rugby league. I personally do not agree with this.

If the IRB came out and stated they wanted RL dead, you still wouldn't see it.

But consider this. The recruitment for both the membership of the ARL Commission, as well as the appointment of the CEO (David Smith) was handled by John Mumm, of Spencer Stuart. Mumm has a very strong rugby union background, his nephew (Dean) is a former Wallaby, and is still playing in France. His son (Greg) is a coach.

Well if he stuffs up esp with something that has such a big profile as the NRL (and I know you hate it, but the NRL is the biggest Rugby comp period) it wouldn't look to well on him would it, would he be prepared to put his own on the line to help out?

Wake up.

The CEO who was appointed after his executive search, David Smith, has a rugby union background. Most rugby league supporters were flabbergasted at how little he knew about rugby league when he was appointed.

Really?

I mean really, a few f**kwits like DUI Bec and that moron weedler with the other alco from the daily terror that supposedly follows the sharks plus bunniesman means most Rugby League supporters, you're a frigging fool, and a dumb one at that.

My question to you is this. Is this a conspiracy? Yet another example of the trickery and treachery of the rah rah world elite?

LOL, you really are up your own arse that much, aren't you?

We have seen in this very thread what has gone on, yet you and a few other dickheads can't see it. Either you are thick, or you really really are blind to everything involved in Union on purpose for some strange reason.

Or is it just what happens in life?

Where do you live?

Can I come to your house with my mates and take everything you have?

If you are consistent in your views, you should be very very worried. Because, on the face of it, the rah rahs are making huge inroads into rugby league at the very top in the most important rugby league market in the world.

LOL, they have always been involved you pillock, Rugby has two forms and they have been crossing each other since 1895.

Go on, say it, say Rugby League and Rugby Union, it's not bloody hard Wambers.

What do you think? Forget about what happened 70 years ago in Europe, or what happens in Morocco today. (Morocco? Who cares?).

What is happening in Australia, right now?

You really are a piece of shit.

I hope your kids or grand kids go through the same thing these others have and then come back and say you don't care. What sort of person is not outraged by seeing or hearing of children being removed from sporting fields at gun point?

People with vested interests or heartless Kents, which are you?

 

[madunit]

Their have been some very poor marketing decisions and lack of genuine progressive discourse to date.

So you've not heard about the Perth, Central Coast and Brisbane bids, which were also competing with a Papua new Guinea and second NZ bids. The only reason why these haven't gone ahead is because the NRL, wisely, has decided to make sure the existing clubs are financially strong enough first.

Things like looking at additional clubs for expansion are not being discussed and it seems the self implosion path of reducing Sydney based clubs is holding sway in a very media driven way.

It's only media talk. Its not a plan by the NRL to reduce the number of Sydney clubs. In saying this, how is any of this in any way relevant to a Rugby Union conspiracy against RL, which was the poser put to you?

My thoughts of widespread repression follow logic and have other examples , not just "Morocco" to show that their is repression of the sport of RL.

Following logic is a long way from facts.

Here's some facts for you to show that Rugby League is expanding internationally. Just so that you know its not all doom and gloom.

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/674/greek-federation-holds-first-general

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/662/rlef-agm--conference-registers

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/660/greek-rugby-league-federation-formed

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/659/first-latvian-club-championship-kicks

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/653/hungary-stages-first-local-rugby

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/633/hungary-and-saudi-arabia-awarded

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/631/uae-aims-for-the-stars

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/608/ukrainian-federation-accepted-as-full

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/604/gauteng-sports-council-recognises-rugby

http://www.rlef.eu.com/news/article/602/western-cape-sports-council-recognises

and that all happened in the past 6 months in the European/African region alone. Some of those teams are heavily dominated by Rugby Union.

As I said before, which you ignorantly avoided, the RLIF needs to stop being such a pushover and start getting fully behind these emerging nations whenever another code, usually RU, decides to step in and bully RL. For too long the RLIF has just stood on the sidelines and watched, which is most of the reason why the RU acts happened and continue to happen.

Yes, I have my suspicions about what is happening in Australia and you point out some very pertinent facts.

Enlighten me.

 

[LJC]

Yes MU

Some small but positive steps of progress. These are fragile organizations and are at the peril of possible "underhanded" actions courtesy of people whom have a vested interest/bias in seeing RL not go ahead. This has happened in countries like Russia, France, Lebanon, Morocco and I'm sure many more. A lot of "nipping it in the bud" activity has been going on at government and administrative levels in areas where RL starts to develop. This is the concern. This does not happen to the other rugby code.

Remember when RL started in Australia it was not backed by the establishment and its rules were modified to make it a more appealing code to gain crowds to financially survive. Yes, the Catholic schools backing was a great advantage and the game needed to flourish, otherwise our great game would not have prospered and grown.

I note that the last article "West Cape" mentions the struggle of RL in getting official South African sports council/government recognition. Examples like that are the concern we should be aware of. It's not common knowledge. It shows a struggle of a sport that is not known to the general public and things like that should be used to inform casual sports fans and RL fans.

It's the struggle that the game of RL has had to endure and still endures that is the thrust of this thread.

 

[madunit]

No one here has disagreed that oppression against RL hasn't happened.

The crux of this thread was your belief that what happened at vichy is a common example of this when it isn't anything more than the most extreme incident that had never before or since been rivalled.

You also refused to accept facts that RL has, as i've said many times, wronged RU but not to the same extent that RU has to RL.

The fact you disagree and argue against these obvious facts to any well read & historically semi-knowledgable RL fan shows you are out of your depth in this thread.

Your ignorance, inability & unwillingness to accept or learn facts about the whole situation is a testament to your brutal stupidity.

 

[madunit]

Remember when RL started in Australia it was not backed by the establishment and its rules were modified to make it a more appealing code to gain crowds to financially survive. Yes, the Catholic schools backing was a great advantage and the game needed to flourish, otherwise our great game would not have prospered and grown.

Rugby League was not modified by or for Australia when it was introduced to the country from the game played in England at the time.

and who is the establishment?

Rugby League's first boss, Henry Hoyle was a Labor Politician & quite a prominent one.

Rugby League had some wealthy financiers in those early years, most notably Victor Trumper, James Giltinan & a year later James Joynton-Smith.

The media supported Rugby League. There was next to no governmental interference in the games birth & growth.

2 years later the RL appointed its first full time secretary, another Labor Politician. Edward Larkin is a highly revered public servant figure who died at Lone Pine, after volunteering for the Army to further his political push for conscription.

Larkin & Hoyle got RL into Catholic Schools and its very likely they were successful at this due to their stature as Politicians.

so i'm genuinely curious what evidence you have that supports your statement that the game was modified in Australia.

Also, i'd like to see your evidence that shows some 'establishment' opposition that had any real effect against the birth of RL.

Because as far as i know, Rugby League in Australia was essentially a player led revolt against the RU governing body. This is why the game wasn't met with the same opposition as it did in most other countries.

the only major issue surrounded professionalism, not the game directly.

 

[thorson1987]

Game, set and match MU

 

[LJC]

Game, set and match MU

If you think that RL struggling in other countries for certification/official recognition is not against the sport when RU has no such issues then think again!

Stop playing with out of context statements and play the real game which is undoubtedly underhanded and repressive tactics employed against the game of RL on a widespread basis worldwide. One of the articles MU quotes points to such repression (RLs inability to gain accreditation/certification in South Africa)

Please go on your shallow emphasis of RLs struggle as it is disturbing when you call yourself a RL fan! Not just my comments but others in this thread have noted this strange stance!

The "establishment" for want of a better term is : political/ administrative/ educational power and access that is not necessarily an easy thing to obtain for the game of RL.

It is the extent of this lack of "establishment " support that is the main concern of this thread. The French example was an example of this(repression) in action! MU denied this as an example and has since changed his tact and tried to isolate it as a unique situation.

It is not the situation that is the main thrust of this thread ! It is the fact that things like the French example can and is happening in many places.

The RL 'establishment advantages and bias' are miniscule compared to what RU has been propagated by for many years!

"Game set and match" to the establishment friends of RU at this stage!

 

[madunit]

The "establishment" for want of a better term is : political/ administrative/ educational power and access that is not necessarily an easy thing to obtain for the game of RL.

Rugby League's first full time President and Secretary were both prominent Labor Politicians who got RL played in Catholic schools. James Joynton Smith and James Giltinan were quite wealthy men. Why are you ignoring these facts??

It is the extent of this lack of "establishment " support that is the main concern of this thread. The French example was an example of this(repression) in action! MU denied this as an example and has since changed his tact and tried to isolate it as a unique situation.

I NEVER denied repression in any context. I simply said that you cannot use what happened at Vichy as an example because it is so excessive and extreme, and the series of incidents at Vichy had never before and never since happened. I NEVER changed any stance. I had to try and explain this simple yet clear point in 27 different ways to you because you're so pig ignorant and f**king stupid, you couldn't understand it.

It is not the situation that is the main thrust of this thread ! It is the fact that things like the French example can and is happening in many places.

No it's not. Because of many things
A: There is no NAZI power trying to start a war with the rest of the world
B: There is no prominent Union nation that has been dropped from the IRB due to shamateurism (as the game is professional now)

That is not to say that repression against League isn't happeneing. It is. It's just not happening anywhere near to the same extent as to what happened at Vichy.

The RL 'establishment advantages and bias' are miniscule compared to what RU has been propagated by for many years!

RL's establishment at it's birth happened. You are trying to deny that to further push your misguided ignorant views which you consistently refuse to support with any evidence.

"Game set and match" to the establishment friends of RU at this stage!

Now you're playing tennis.

 

[LJC]

I see you are playing the "isolated incident" rhetoric again.

We agree that it is a unique situation but it is still an example of what can happen when those in power and with a bias against the game of RL can do.

The many examples of repression in places like Russia, South Africa, Morocco, England(military sport recognition)Lebanon etc have their own unique scenario. These are examples as well!

Yes,there are no NAZIs or French government officials involved in other scenarios as they are in different countries and in different times. But they (numerous other examples)and the French examples (repressive tactics to this day)are examples no matter how you look at it!

 

[madunit]

I'm not playing anything.

You just keep ignoring facts & completely misunderstanding what is being posted.

 

[LJC]

I'm not playing anything.

You just keep ignoring facts & completely misunderstanding what is being posted.

Would really appreciate you forwarding information about the repressive tactics used against RL in the many examples we see around the world.

That would be good!

As you state you have written a book on RL. Perhaps you may look at a book devoted to the repression of RL on a world wide scale. I'd say it would be a great read!

At the moment this very debilitating and widespread repression of RL is not common knowledge and should be!

 

[madunit]

More evidence that you haven't read my posts properly.

I never said i wrote any book.

And its about time you started putting up some facts first.

I see you're not interested in discussing your latest tangent.

You are an oxymoron.

 

[LJC]

More evidence that you haven't read my posts properly.

I never said i wrote any book.

And its about time you started putting up some facts first.

I see you're not interested in discussing your latest tangent.

You are an oxymoron.

A lot of people would not read such posts as they have been excessively complicated and are not addressing the core issue which is the undeniable repression of the sport of RL in many places around the world!

The evidence has been provided throughout this thread. And if that doesn't cut it with you then you have the issues.

Quite simply RL does not have the influence in establishment circles that RU has. This in itself lends itself to questionable and underhanded tactics employed by the code/or its "friends" that has influence to stem/stop the growth of RL.

If their were no issues then :Why do the armed forces stop a RL side playing a tour game in both Lebanon and Morocco in recent years? Why does RL in South Africa and Russia struggle to be certified/officially recognized? And so on....

If you think that this and other examples are the "rub of the green" then go on believing this as this sort of repression is no "accident" or "by chance" occurrence. It is specifically targeted against the sport of RL and no other sport that rivals RU. Simple as that!

If you do not think that their is logic and substance to this observation then I can't help you!

The many examples of repression brought up by other contributors, not only myself, are solid evidence of the repression that RL has and is enduring.

The French example is case in point! It is historically well documented and the repression of RL exists to this day!

 

[kier]

It seems to me that this entire argument is an result of the problem of arguing through example and counter example. There will always be individual events (facts) that can be plucked out to agree or disagree with a viewpoint.

When it comes to the behaviour of RU and RL authorities there has always been to my mind an important distinction between how the two sports have generally behaved towards each other. RL has "caused damage" to others codes by offering opportunities and choices - the 1908 Wallabies being a high profile and extreme example. None of the players involved were forced or compelled to do anything. Their actions did damage RU - but no wider moral/legal/ethical rules (other than potential accusation of "bad form") were broken. In fact a few years later the QRL was instrumental in helping the QRU restart from scratch following WWI.

There are too many examples of behaviour by RU individuals/organisations that are examples of restriction and repression - the Vichy incident being the most outrageous example.

I'm proud that RL has never had policies and widespread actions that hinge on stopping people's freedom of choice. If anyone knows of restrictive practices by RL I'd be very keen to hear of them.

 

[LJC]

It seems to me that this entire argument is an result of the problem of arguing through example and counter example. There will always be individual events (facts) that can be plucked out to agree or disagree with a viewpoint.

When it comes to the behaviour of RU and RL authorities there has always been to my mind an important distinction between how the two sports have generally behaved towards each other. RL has "caused damage" to others codes by offering opportunities and choices - the 1908 Wallabies being a high profile and extreme example. None of the players involved were forced or compelled to do anything. Their actions did damage RU - but no wider moral/legal/ethical rules (other than potential accusation of "bad form") were broken. In fact a few years later the QRL was instrumental in helping the QRU restart from scratch following WWI.

There are too many examples of behaviour by RU individuals/organisations that are examples of restriction and repression - the Vichy incident being the most outrageous example.

I'm proud that RL has never had policies and widespread actions that hinge on stopping people's freedom of choice. If anyone knows of restrictive practices by RL I'd be very keen to hear of them.

Excellent statement.

The repression of RL is widespread and a real struggle for a great sport! It needs to be exposed and in a much more general way than is now being witnessed. The general public is not aware of the many repressive tactics used against the sport of RL and this should be known and not hidden.

 

[Primerus]

I think MU is just looking at this whole thing from the outside as a neutral party. He is basically saying 2 wrongs don't make a right; which appears to be the sentiment that others are expressing. MU is by no means justifying any actions taken by the RU, or RL for that matter. Merely stating that whilst RU went to extreme measures to extinguish what is RL, they did so out of retaliation to their player base being under fire and what may have been an interpretation to try an eliminate their code.

Did RU over-react? Quite possibly. But don't mistake MU's post as a defense or attack to either party. The broader picture is both parties played their part and no one is free of any wrong doing. One just happened to have friends in very high places.

 

[LJC]

I think MU is just looking at this whole thing from the outside as a neutral party. He is basically saying 2 wrongs don't make a right; which appears to be the sentiment that others are expressing. MU is by no means justifying any actions taken by the RU, or RL for that matter. Merely stating that whilst RU went to extreme measures to extinguish what is RL, they did so out of retaliation to their player base being under fire and what may have been an interpretation to try an eliminate their code.

Did RU over-react? Quite possibly. But don't mistake MU's post as a defense or attack to either party. The broader picture is both parties played their part and no one is free of any wrong doing. One just happened to have friends in very high places.

Perhaps RL has affected the growth of RU in some way when poaching players but to knowhere near the extent that RU has gone out of its way to limit and stop the growth of RL!
This is what must be looked at and talked about.
The repression of RL on a world stage is far more reaching and evident than any ill tactics toward the game of RU.

Why is this so?

Yes, the friends in high places of RU(multitudes courtesy of private school/wealthy bias) have enabled such a repression of RL, but this should not be seen as a thing to be expected . It is downright deceitful and has negated the growth of another sport which I believe is far more attractive and democratic for all participants.

The shame is that this sort of repression of RL is well hidden and not discussed by the general public. I believe that even RU biased people, if informed would view the sport of RU in a different way as well. It's something that needs to be openly discussed and told! Simple as that!

RL will have a successful world cup this year despite the obstacles put in its way. A credit to how good the sport is!
To simplify the argument a code of rugby that has on average about 600 tackles(therefore runs)(RL) per game compared to 180 tackles per game(RU) should be far more well known and accepted worldwide. This is not the case.

The reasons are being discussed in this thread!

 

[supercharger]

RL will have a successful world cup this year despite the obstacles put in its way. A credit to how good the sport is!

What obstacles?