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Brisbane Tigers make their bid to be 18th team

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12,742
the NRL grant now makes a club almost anywhere viable, even the sports graveyard that is the gold coast

Yes, but clubs still need to generate around $10m from football operations. It's not impossible for a Perth-based to generate this sum, but it will require a significant investment from the WA Gov to get Perth Oval up to scratch, build a high performance training centre and low stadium rental fees.

The Brisbane Lions paid just $1 for a 99 year lease over their new headquarters in Ipswich.

The Lions and the AFL had signed a Heads of Agreement with the Ipswich City Council and Springfield Land Corporation for the development of the site, which included a 99-year lease for $1.


On top of that, the AFL secured $53.9m in funding from the Ipswich City Council, Queensland Gov and Fed Gov, plus another $8m from the AFL:

Anson and CEO Swan worked tirelessly behind the scenes, and after taking AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan to a meeting with Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk, were delighted on the day of the 2018 AFLW Grand Final to confirm a State Government commitment of $15m, which later became $18m.

They took Leigh Matthews, then Lions Deputy Chairman, to Canberra for a meeting with representatives of the Scott Morrison Federal Government and secured a further $15m. Later, they added $20.6m in funding from the Ipswich City Council and $8m from the AFL.

Will a Perth-based team secure this sort of funding from the local council, WA and Fed Gov?

Will the ARLC throw in $8m towards a high performance training centre in Perth?
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
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65,906
I just scoured over the Dockers' annual report. In 2022 the club generated $8,192,514 in sponsorship revenue. In 2021 it was $5,663,438.

All on p30 of their report.


That's for an AFL team with 53k members in a parochial AFL city, playing its games out of a world class venue.

A Perth-based NRL team is not going to generate that sort of revenue playing out of Perth Oval in its current state, is it?
why are you ignoring the other $9.5mill in corporate revenue Dockers earn? Not to mention they are fighting the bigger club in town for similar sponsors, an nrl club is likely to attract different sponsors looking for exposure on the east coast.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,906
I do have proof that clubs need to generate a bare minimum of $10-15m from football operations to be financially viable. It was stated on p28 of the Gemba report that was conducted on behalf of the Titans when they tried to squash the Dolphins' entry.

• Based on benchmarks from existing smaller NRL clubs, it is estimated that a new club would have operating costs of $23.6m per year which is largely driven by Player Wages and Other Wages​
• The NRL provides clubs with a Grant of at least $13.6m and covers some other operational expenses which aren’t included in the estimated total costs​
• Assuming a new club had an operating cost base of $23.6m, the club would need to generate $10.0m in revenue through Sponsorship, Game Day Revenue, Hospitality, Membership etc. in order to break even. This is expected to be challenging in early years due to the competitive landscape in which the club is entering​
• If the club is unable to achieve this, the operating loss would need to be covered by the club or the NRL would be required to provide additional financial support​

The teams operating on just $10m from football operations have pokie machines to bail them out. Perth won't have any revenue from pokies because WA law prohibits licenced venues from carrying gaming machines. That leaves corporate hospitality, sponsorship, ticketing, membership and merchandise as the only means of revenue for a Perth team. Without a rich financier they will struggle unless they're given a good stadium rental deal by the WA Gov and have the corporate facilities at Perth Oval upgraded to provide a decent revenue stream from hospitality. It's not impossible, but without a generous deal from the WA Gov it will be extremely hard.

The club will also need to develop a high performance training centre. We saw what the CoE did to the Titans. Exorbitant stadium rental fees hurt the Titans, too. These are things the ARLC need to get right before accepting a team from Perth or New Zealand 2.
Wa govt has funded cofe’s for union, soccer, basketball, athletics, netball and hockey. No reason why it wouldnt for RL.
 
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12,742
IMO nothing nine has done recently suggests they would go all in for anything, they want what they want without having to actually pay anything for it, and Vlandys seems happy to let them walk all over him, they'll likely pay the bare minimum for the extra game regardless of wherethe next team is based, but will gladly offer their "opinion" on what's easiest and best for them.

What's actually more likely is FTA wont even want an extra game, and funding for that will come solely from news, who clearly don't want anything effecting their Broncos the slightest

Regardless we shouldn't be letting broadcasters, who have their own agendas, tell us where and what to do, the NRL should be doing what's best for it in the long run, proper investment in the future of the game

Fumbleball's broadcasters don't seem to have any problem letting them decide what they want to do, then pay up anyway.

Ch9/Stan did put in a $500m bid for the AFL. They might go all in for the NRL as they need content for Stan. They did create a documentary about the Dolphins for Stan.

I wish the ARLC was ambitious like the AFL and set up teams in Adelaide and Perth. I've given up waiting for it to happen. The problem is when we have a CEO who does stand up to the broadcasters he gets stabbed in the back by the clubs.

Any regulations on gaming machines will hurt the NSW clubs the most. Broncos generated more than $27m from football operations in 2022.


Cowboys generated $22,593,126 from football operations.


The smaller Sydney clubs, such as Bulldogs, generate about $10-12m from football operations.
 
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Messages
12,742
Wa govt has funded cofe’s for union, soccer, basketball, athletics, netball and hockey. No reason why it wouldnt for RL.
If the ARLC was proactive they would have no trouble getting funding from the WA Gov and Fed Gov for an upgrade to Perth Oval and a new high performance training centre.

Our game failed to get a suitable deal for the Titans in 2007. I don't have much faith in the ARLC.
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
5,858
Wa govt has funded cofe’s for union, soccer, basketball, athletics, netball and hockey. No reason why it wouldnt for RL.

Lol, they provided some funding but not nearly enough to say they funded those teams. Twiggy funded force
 
Messages
12,742
a new club won’t be admitted until 2028. Plenty of time to build the infrastrucutre and sort out hbf park, IF the nrl announce perth soon.



Eh? Dockers earn more corporate revenue than everyone in nrl except broncos ($17.6million)

On p30 of the 2022 Dockers annual report it says the club generated $5,831,880 from corporate hospitality and $8,192,514 from sponsorship. Membership was $18,220,646 from 53k members. Match revenue was $8,020,937. Merchandise was $2,504,797.

 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,906
On p30 of the 2022 Dockers annual report it says the club generated $5,831,880 from corporate hospitality and $8,192,514 from sponsorship. Membership was $18,220,646 from 53k members. Match revenue was $8,020,937. Merchandise was $2,504,797.

And advertising/signageich is also corporate revenue stream. Like I said last year Dockers generated $17.5mill in corporate revenue all up. More than 15 of 16 nrl clubs. Not sure what point you’re trying to make lol
An nrl club only needs -$10mill in corporate revenue and $4-5mill in fanbase revenue, no problem in a city as rich as perth.
 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,420
You're yet to provide any evidence that it's "too soon" for a third Brisbane team. That's just a bullshit claim you've plucked out of your arse because you don't have an actual argument against a third Brisbane team.

You've also ignored the fact that the Brisbane Tigers have a far more advanced bid than anything coming out of New Zealand and Perth.

I'll say it again since it didn't get through the first few times. A third Brisbane team is hardly comparable to Sydney's nine. Only some one who doesn't understand basic maths and economics would say Brisbane 3 is equal to Sydney 9. On a per capita basis it's not even close to being equal. Financially, the Broncos and Dolphins are kicking the Sydney clubs' arses. You really don't have a reasonable argument, so just stop with the false equivalencies.

The odds of a Sydney club being relocated or wound up are slim to none. So too is the proposition of the ARLC creating a club in Perth or NZ from scratch and funding it for years, which is what will need to happen unless the WA or NZ Govs subsidises it. The odds of Perth or NZ2 being financially stable by 2028 without any assistance from the ARLC are slim to none. Either club will need to generate at least $10-15m from football operations because they won't have a pokie den to rely on.

I just scoured over the Dockers' annual report. In 2022 the club generated $8,192,514 in sponsorship revenue. In 2021 it was $5,663,438.

All on p30 of their report.


That's for an AFL team with 53k members in a parochial AFL city, playing its games out of a world class venue.

A Perth-based NRL team is not going to generate that sort of revenue playing out of Perth Oval in its current state, is it?

Get the WA Gov to upgrade Perth Oval and agree to sponsor a Perth-based NRL club for its first 10 years. Then it'll be a realistic contender for the 18th licence and an asset to the NRL. If we rush into Perth without attaining any assurances from the WA Gov and fail to upgrade Perth Oval then the club will struggle to survive. To be fair, the ARLC could have done all of this by now if they were diligent. They've sat on their arse and twiddle their thumbs despite the WA Gov being very supportive.

Do you really think it's realistic to expect the ARLC -- and the current 17 clubs that have a seat at the negotiating table -- to bankroll new teams from Perth and New Zealand?

Two things are certain.

1. The ARLC is not going to cull any clubs.​
2. The ARLC is not going to prop up NZ2 and Perth like the AFL does with Gold Coast and GWS.​

You say it's "not sensible" to bring in a third Brisbane team any time soon.

On what basis can you make this claim?

On every key point the Brisbane Tigers are head shoulders ahead of Perth and NZ2. What's not sensible is saying we should overlook the Tigers' better credentials just because you don't feel the time is right for a third Brisbane team. Thankfully, the ARLC will judge each candidate by the strength of their business operations and infrastructure. They won't give a f**k about your concerns over it being "too soon". Judging by the ARLC's reluctance to go against the wishes of the broadcasters, it's "not sensible" to think they're going to go with NZ2 or Perth when Ch9 has already thrown their support behind Brisbane 3.

That’s a lot of words and emotional ones at that just to say I want another Brisbane team.

If you want evidence or a reason why you don’t do it, look around at every other sporting competition. There’s also a little thing called laws of diminishing returns which runs into this.

For example, let’s take Major League Baseball. By rights, you could have 5 or 6 teams from New York or Los Angeles and they would probably be worth a lot more money than any one of the Oakland Athletics or the Tampa Bay Rays or the Colorado Rockies and a probably a fair few others. Have a look at the money spent on rosters over there to get an insight into what I’m taking about.


If I looked at the NBA or the NFL you would probably find the same thing happening.

Even closer to home you could look at the fumblers 30 odd years ago. They could have decided instead of going to Brisbane and Sydney, we’ll just put extra teams in Adelaide and Perth. They would have been a lot easier to run and would have been a lot safer. Now, 30 years later, we have a RL team in Brisbane using that same code as a reason for them to get in because we are supposed to be scared of them . It’s embarrassing that we as a code don’t get it.

All of these examples are why it is not sensible as an overall strategy. Because any and every business has to go to new markets in order to get new customers. Any time you do the opposite, all you are doing is splitting the existing customer base. So, unless all of Australia is just going to live in NSW and Qld in the future, then you go and take your product to customers who can’t participate in it or have access to it.

Now you can disagree with me all you want but putting another team in Brisbane is not growing your customer base, however you want to spin it. If there were no other options and you have exhausted all your potential markets, then go for your life. But until then I don’t see the point and I don’t give a f*** about your or their concerns about it either if I were to quote you.
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
5,858
That’s a lot of words and emotional ones at that just to say I want another Brisbane team.

If you want evidence or a reason why you don’t do it, look around at every other sporting competition. There’s also a little thing called laws of diminishing returns which runs into this.

For example, let’s take Major League Baseball. By rights, you could have 5 or 6 teams from New York or Los Angeles and they would probably be worth a lot more money than any one of the Oakland Athletics or the Tampa Bay Rays or the Colorado Rockies and a probably a fair few others. Have a look at the money spent on rosters over there to get an insight into what I’m taking about.


If I looked at the NBA or the NFL you would probably find the same thing happening.

Even closer to home you could look at the fumblers 30 odd years ago. They could have decided instead of going to Brisbane and Sydney, we’ll just put extra teams in Adelaide and Perth. They would have been a lot easier to run and would have been a lot safer. Now, 30 years later, we have a RL team in Brisbane using that same code as a reason for them to get in because we are supposed to be scared of them . It’s embarrassing that we as a code don’t get it.

All of these examples are why it is not sensible as an overall strategy. Because any and every business has to go to new markets in order to get new customers. Any time you do the opposite, all you are doing is splitting the existing customer base. So, unless all of Australia is just going to live in NSW and Qld in the future, then you go and take your product to customers who can’t participate in it or have access to it.

Now you can disagree with me all you want but putting another team in Brisbane is not growing your customer base, however you want to spin it. If there were no other options and you have exhausted all your potential markets, then go for your life. But until then I don’t see the point and I don’t give a f*** about your or their concerns about it either if I were to quote you.

55 metro areas in USA with population of 1 million. 5 in Australia. Afl - nrl divide here. Totally different scenario
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
5,858
And advertising/signageich is also corporate revenue stream. Like I said last year Dockers generated $17.5mill in corporate revenue all up. More than 15 of 16 nrl clubs. Not sure what point you’re trying to make lol
An nrl club only needs -$10mill in corporate revenue and $4-5mill in fanbase revenue, no problem in a city as rich as perth.

Won't get anywhere near level of afl club in Perth.
 
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