Elliott cleaning house

[Manu Vatuvei]

I do think Cleary was working towards a premiership and wasn't just happy with with mid table finishes as you are alluding to. I don't buy the constant rattle I hear about Cleary never having a premiership in him, his style of footy was boring etc.

Each to their own. I think that was exactly the right conclusion to draw from his time in charge.

Especially that he couldn't get the most out of his talented youngsters. Rubbish.

The likes of Locke, Packer, Lewis Brown, Taylor, Matulino all emerged and were playing the best football we've seen them play under Cleary. Our 2011 squad was mostly all home grown, and almost all of them fell apart in 2012.

Well, we could go through each of those guys individually and talk at length about when they were playing their best footy, Cleary's role in that etc. My overall assessment would be that we never extracted as much as we could have out of talented locals under Cleary and, as I keep saying, sneaking into a grand final shouldn't be confused with any sort of sustained excellence from either the club, the coach or the players.

The fact that certain players are now woefully underperforming and disenchanted certainly puts Cleary's tenure in a better light, but shouldn't confuse us into thinking that relative mediocrity was great simply because what we have now is crap.

He didn't win us a title, and we didn't deserve a title during his time here. Fair enough.
But he still did great things for us here, some credit where its due.

"Great". I dunno. He did pretty well. I give him credit for what he did but not exaggerated credit viewed through rose-tinted glasses.

I watched some of the 2008 1 v 8 game against Melbourne the other day and it did get me thinking. We had some really average players in that side and the Melbourne team was ridiculous- I'd sort of forgotten how crazy it was that one team had the big 3 + Inglis + Folau. Where I give Cleary massive credit is how he managed to get that team to play tough and to out-do itself at times. However I reckon that in implementing his culture and his strategy he sometimes restricted himself to certain players and a certain style of play. I just think he had limitations we needed to branch out from, we just branched out to something a lot crapper so he looks shit-hot by comparison.

 

[ozenzud]

Don't go along with this, at all.

How many premierships have our U20's won?
How many G/Finals ?
How many top 8's ?

I would say the Juniors are without doubt, the best coached,motivated, successful team in the Toyota/Holden Cups comp..

When you have the biggest and fastest kids in the neighbourhood, you could coach them to a victory. Just tell them which way to run. Ackland was good at identifying talent, putting them on the field and running over the top of opposition teams.

He is not good at producing 1st graders. Time and time again, I see under 20's players doing dumb things. They are big enough to get away with it

 

[vvvrulz]

I just think he had limitations we needed to branch out from, we just branched out to something a lot crapper so he looks shit-hot by comparison.

He had limitations, agreed. But on the flip side you could praise his effectiveness compared to 2012 instead of saying Bluey's so bad it makes Clearly look good. Lets not forget we have only had two good coaches in our history (Elliott still unproven), and Cleary picked up a team right at the bottom of the dog pile.

He was a work in progress that was steadily improving. Even if we won the comp in 2012 I would have praised Cleary equally regardless. Was better than Anderson? Can't make up my mind on that.

Overall lets agree to disagree.

 

[vvvrulz]

Let's not forget there was serious reluctance to give Johnson a run in 2011. A fair bit of our good run home that season can be put down to Johnson going through his honeymoon phase at just the right time, and I'd venture that had very little to do with Cleary's canny planning.

Let's not forget also though that Seymour was the #7 and doing a pretty good job with Maloney in the halves. He wasn't rocking the world but he was decent and we were still top 8 in 2010. To bring in an untested kid to replaced the seasoned Seymour was a pretty big call to make.

It worked and as a result Seymour got Vulcanized. Cleary handled that fine.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I can't remember the exact circumstances but my recollection was more along the lines that Seymour both pretty much sucked on field in 2011 and was back to getting pissed off it, forcing Cleary's hand. Johnson was supposed to be the next big superstar of the game and if he'd been made to play out a full season in the Vulcans you'd have to seriously ask whether he'd still be at the Warriors.

 

[tangalife]

Johnson only got his chance because Seymour fell injured and we had been hassling Cleary to play Johnson for about 1.5 years before that. It kind of just fell into place.

Johnson was overdue his chance to play, evident when you hear Awen Guittenbeil screaming "JUST PUT HIM IN FIRST GRADE" during one of his star u20 performances..

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Johnson only got his chance because Seymour fell injured and we had been hassling Cleary to play Johnson for about 1.5 years before that. It kind of just fell into place.

Johnson was overdue his chance to play, evident when you hear Awen Guittenbeil screaming "JUST PUT HIM IN FIRST GRADE" during one of his star u20 performances..

Exactly how I remember it, but was loathe to say it as people could just argue that he wasn't ready then.

Whether or not he actually was ready, his name had been out there since the start of 2009 so by mid-2011 his debut felt long-overdue and I imagine SJ himself was running out of patience.

 

[hitro]

Packer is officially announced with the Knights.
Wonder if other parts of the original post will become fact too?

 

[ozbash]

1) No they don't

2) Where do our first graders come from?

Attitude, discipline, the basics of tackling, positioning and handling. These are things not being met in our junior development despite apparently being the best coached team. What a load.

1- yes they do, get off the forums, watch some league shows, listen to the radio, read a newspaper/mags, stop listening to Fast Ed :lol:

2- a variety of places, offshore, juniors, national clubs etc etc whats your point ?

Your point re attitude, discipline, the basics of tackling, positioning and handling, definitely do not apply to our NRL team... they could possibly learn something from a bunch of 17 year old plus kids. (who, incidently, are playing in another grand final this weekend and have a bloody good chance of winning it,,, again )

and you talk about "load" :lol:

 

[ozbash]

When you have the biggest and fastest kids in the neighbourhood, you could coach them to a victory. Just tell them which way to run. Ackland was good at identifying talent, putting them on the field and running over the top of opposition teams.

He is not good at producing 1st graders. Time and time again, I see under 20's players doing dumb things. They are big enough to get away with it

biggest and fastest ? wtf are you talking about ? Bulldogs, Souths, Manly, Roosters. better check your stats...

It is not (and never was) Acklands job to produce FGers, his job is to identify young talent and coach an U20's team,,, and he is the most successful coach in the league at both positions !

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

1- yes they do, get off the forums, watch some league shows, listen to the radio, read a newspaper/mags, stop listening to Fast Ed :lol:

2- a variety of places, offshore, juniors, national clubs etc etc whats your point ?

Your point re attitude, discipline, the basics of tackling, positioning and handling, definitely do not apply to our NRL team... they could possibly learn something from a bunch of 17 year old plus kids. (who, incidently, are playing in another grand final this weekend and have a bloody good chance of winning it,,, again )

and you talk about "load" :lol:

I do, and your consistency for spouting it makes me wonder why I'm debating with someone so ignorant.

Radio, TV, league shows. :lol: If you watched as many as you are suggesting I do you would see 20 different players be referred to as 'one of, if not the best" in the league and that list changes every week depending on who's playing at the time.

Parramatta, and Tigers aside I've seen EVERY side not in the 8 at some point in the season spoken about, and I quote as "a team that should be doing better with the roster they have." Except 14 teams can't make the 8 and twenty players can't be the best at the same time.

Learn to think for yourself instead of being sucked in by commentator clichés that suit whatever the subject of the minute is.

Another grand final, like the two teams who won a couple of years ago and now consist of over half our NRL squad? It's no shocker that the brain dead plays we see on a weekly basis largely come from the ones we've brought through the junior ranks.

 

[ozbash]

It's no shocker that the brain dead plays we see on a weekly basis largely come from the ones we've brought through the junior ranks.

you need help....

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

biggest and fastest ? wtf are you talking about ? Bulldogs, Souths, Manly, Roosters. better check your stats...

It is not (and never was) Acklands job to produce FGers, his job is to identify young talent and coach an U20's team,,, and he is the most successful coach in the league at both positions !

And now he's gone because the Warriors want to develop first graders rather than winning U20's titles. Smart move, and the right move.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

you need help....

You can't counter an argument and I need help? :lol: Nice try, weak response, move along junior.

 

[ozbash]

You can't counter an argument and I need help? :lol: Nice try, weak response, move along junior.

whats to counter ?

I'm right, you're wrong...

check the results...

 

[Lossy]

It is not (and never was) Acklands job to produce FGers, his job is to identify young talent and coach an U20's team,,, and he is the most successful coach in the league at both positions !

Recruitment and development is down to young Master Jones this year, and rested with Dean Bell from late 2008. He even managed the inaugural NYC team at the same time. Seems that most of the U20's work was done by Iro and Bell.

No harm in John benefitting from other's work. Can't get the rough end of the pineapple all the time.

But occasionally you do. And needing a whole of club philosophy is why he's getting the arse and young Master Jones is replacing him. As you said, Ackland's main function was to coach the U20s to victory.

Well done, John. Thanks for that. The NZRL is just over the road.

 

[Hanscholo]

I would of thought that a player of Packer's ability would have been a high priority to keep. Does anyone think for a second that Wayne Bennett doesn't know exactly what he is getting? He took weyman and turned him into a rhino. I wouldnt be surprised if he does the same thing with packer. They signed him for 4 years, they aren't sheepish.

All of the systems and big talk mean nothing when you can't sit down with a bloke like Packer and come to an agreement on how to get the best out of him. You cleanout blokes that are under size, or slow or have no footwork. You can't fix those problems, you can sort out sooky attitudes and big kids though and you don't have to get people upset with you as you do it.

This is a premiership winning squad right now. I wouldn't be cleaning too much up with it at all. Certainly wouldn't be trading packer a year short of his contract. Mason and Bennett will get a hold of this guy and turn him around, just watch. Then you'll see what you are missing and its not players. Bennett does nothing tactically where he goes. But he gets every bit of talent out of people he manages. If you do that at the warriors there is no reason why you cant win 2-3 comps with this squad.

 

[ozenzud]

biggest and fastest ? wtf are you talking about ? Bulldogs, Souths, Manly, Roosters. better check your stats...

It is not (and never was) Acklands job to produce FGers, his job is to identify young talent and coach an U20's team,,, and he is the most successful coach in the league at both positions !

This is where you and I disagree. I'd give up 20, under 20 permierships for just one 1st Grade title.

The warriors are heading towards their 20th year in the comp, without a title.

And obviously Elliot as the head coach of the Warriors, told Ackland his job wasn't to win under 20's comps, but to produce 1st graders. So you are just plain wrong saying that it isn't Ackland's job to produce 1st graders. If he has been told it is, it is.

 

[Izz]

And obviously Elliot as the head coach of the Warriors, told Ackland his job wasn't to win under 20's comps, but to produce 1st graders.

Or at least to be happy to let guys play reserve grade if they'd developed as far as they could in the U20s.

 

[ozenzud]

Eggggsackly