SJ.

[Thatwasnthighref]

Cam George was very non commital this morning on the radio when asked if there was going to be a contract there for Shaun next year . He dropped into the conversation that both parties had agreed there would only be a deal on the table if SJ could guarantee 100% fitness next year

Really? Bit of an odd one.... I can understand the desire for it, but dunno how anyone could guarantee 100% fitness.

But if SJ didnt commit to it, I guess it shows he didnt trust his body to hold up. And if he was at that point, then calling time was the right call.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

Think it's the right call.

After last year, I can certainly see why he went around this year, unfortunately his body hasn't quite been right. Granted he has been playing busted, and potentially could have been managed better.

I'd be interested to see how he'll be remembered by fans, has he done enough to eclipse Jones as our best ever halfback?

 

[sup42]

No surprise, been saying all year his body is done.

We should play someone else at 7 in prep for for next year. Nostalgia is the only reason to keep rolling Johnson out.

Won't happen but that's what would be best for the club.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I'd be interested to see how he'll be remembered by fans, has he done enough to eclipse Jones as our best ever halfback?

I'm inclined to say no, Jones slightly ahead...although *whispers* I didn't rate either of them as highly as a lot of Warriors fans do

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

After last year, I can certainly see why he went around this year, unfortunately his body hasn't quite been right. Granted he has been playing busted, and potentially could have been managed better.

That’s the disappointing thing for me. Easy to say in hindsight but looking back now, I do believe he (and to some extent Webster) did himself a disservice by playing busted. And that if he’d been a little more selfish, it may have worked out better for both him and the club.

I'd be interested to see how he'll be remembered by fans, has he done enough to eclipse Jones as our best ever halfback?

IMO, no. Someone might correct me statistically but my sense is Stace was more consistent over his career. I think SJ arguably had the bigger ceiling, but ultimately never quite got there.

 

[JJ]

I'm inclined to say no, Jones slightly ahead...although *whispers* I didn't rate either of them as highly as a lot of Warriors fans do

Agree 100%. Johnson more talented, both overrated imo. Not to say both didn’t have great careers, but imo a level below Sterling, Stuart, Langer, Johns , Thurston…

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

During Jones's career I always saw him as primarily a fast, nippy halfback who had a dangerous running game. His kicking game was ok (not very long) and I always thought his passing was a bit ponderous. I rarely remember him putting teammates through gaps or creating an overlap unless he got through the line with his running game first.

I used to covet the elite Aussies halves of that era who I used to see throwing hard, long cut-out passes, creating overlaps, putting centres and second rowers into gaps. I never saw Jones as being that sort of player.

As often happens, Jones's legend seems to me to have grown in retirement above what I remember it being when he was playing - although I think the reassessment of Jones partly started in 2005 and 2006 when he steered the Kiwis around in two tri-series while past his physical prime.

 

[Blair]

Good career. Great highlight reel. Time to move on

Short and sharp, not far from the truth, but that won't be up in lights during his send off.

 

[Blair]

Agree 100%. Johnson more talented, both overrated imo. Not to say both didn’t have great careers, but imo a level below Sterling, Stuart, Langer, Johns , Thurston…

Add Cronk, Maloney, Cherry-Evans...they all won premierships. You have to win one if you want legend status.

 

[ozenzud]

There are some spectacular moments in his career. I will remember them and says thanks to SJ for playing our game. I can say without risk of being credibly challenged, that the game is better for him having played. He got the rewards from it as well. Both the fans and him, are better off.

 

[JJ]

Add Cronk, Maloney, Cherry-Evans...they all won premierships. You have to win one if you want legend status.

I don’t see Maloney there, and the not like nature of Cronk leaves me cold. Cleary and probably Mortimer in that group, DCE a bit like Mortimer a smidgen below the best (and had Foran). Alexander always a decent comparison to SJ imo, both more talented than pretty much anyone, but never quite cracked it… Alexander looked like he did 90-91 then his world fell apart, and obviously SJ did more internationally

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I listened to *some* of SJ's podcast today, to see what he'd have to say about retirement...

I have to say, if they keep trumpeting that podcasts are the new media, and taking away the power and the rhetoric from journos etc...that they better start asking less sycophantic questions and actually be a bit more subjective, or some may stop listening (me). But maybe, that's not what the new generation does.

At one stage, Marc Peard calls SJ one of the greatest, if not the greatest Kiwis league players of all time, then Brook Ruscoe (SJ's closest mate) calls him probably the greatest Warrior of all time. I couldn't listen on past that. I love positivity, and giving people their dues, but the questions were blowing wind directly up his backside. No real insight.

If SJ is in the top 20 Kiwis of all time, I'd be surprised. If he was in the top 10 Warriors, again, I'd be surprised.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I listened to *some* of SJ's podcast today, to see what he'd have to say about retirement...

I have to say, if they keep trumpeting that podcasts are the new media, and taking away the power and the rhetoric from journos etc...that they better start asking less sycophantic questions and actually be a bit more subjective, or some may stop listening (me). But maybe, that's not what the new generation does.

At one stage, Marc Peard calls SJ one of the greatest, if not the greatest Kiwis league players of all time, then Brook Ruscoe (SJ's closest mate) calls him probably the greatest Warrior of all time. I couldn't listen on past that. I love positivity, and giving people their dues, but the questions were blowing wind directly up his backside. No real insight.

If SJ is in the top 20 Kiwis of all time, I'd be surprised. If he was in the top 10 Warriors, again, I'd be surprised.

This is why I am very, very reluctant to get behind player-created content, despite the seductive sounding rationales offered for it e.g. that it cuts out the middleman, stops journos making up BS, etc etc

Yes it cuts out the middleman, but it doesn't get you any closer to the truth - rather, it just gives you a direct line to the "party line" from the player. This is exactly why journalism exists, because you can't just take what an inherently biased, self-interested party says as the gospel truth. Saying that only the player can give you the correct information about the player is straight up Orwellian logic.

You can see it happening in real time too, you only need to look at Instagram comments for example. Despite all the talk of trolling (which is definitely a real thing) the more striking feature is actually the cultish sycophancy.

This is the same reason I was hesitant to support SJ when he complained about "the trolls" a little while ago. In a lot of ways it's all an attempt by self-interested people to control the narrative and squash negative assessments of them, by replacing it with a biased pro-whoever narrative that frames all criticism as inherently bad.

Beyond that, it's also a pretty bad idea to take critique and analysis out of the hands of people who are actually educated in things like logic, reason, what a fact is etc, and hand it over entirely to footy players who may not have even a rudimentary education in how, say, logic works. If that sounds like pretentious philosophy student babble, well I think it's just as pretentious to think that only footy players are capable of understanding footy when we are all perfectly capable of watching it and more or less observing what is going on.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

This is why I am very, very reluctant to get behind player-created content, despite the seductive sounding rationales offered for it e.g. that it cuts out the middleman, stops journos making up BS, etc etc

Yes it cuts out the middleman, but it doesn't get you any closer to the truth - rather, it just gives you a direct line to the "party line" from the player. This is exactly why journalism exists, because you can't just take what an inherently biased, self-interested party says as the gospel truth. Saying that only the player can give you the correct information about the player is straight up Orwellian logic.

You can see it happening in real time too, you only need to look at Instagram comments for example. Despite all the talk of trolling (which is definitely a real thing) the more striking feature is actually the cultish sycophancy.

This is the same reason I was hesitant to support SJ when he complained about "the trolls" a little while ago. In a lot of ways it's all an attempt by self-interested people to control the narrative and squash negative assessments of them, by replacing it with a biased pro-whoever narrative that frames all criticism as inherently bad.

Beyond that, it's also a pretty bad idea to take critique and analysis out of the hands of people who are actually educated in things like logic, reason, what a fact is etc, and hand it over entirely to footy players who may not have even a rudimentary education in how, say, logic works. If that sounds like pretentious philosophy student babble, well I think it's just as pretentious to think that only footy players are capable of understanding footy when we are all perfectly capable of watching it and more or less observing what is going on.

Yeah, I couldnt agree with this more. I have more thoughts but I'll share them at another time. There has to be an objective voice, as you say.

 

[JJ]

Calling him the greatest Kiwi (or even close) is incredibly disrespectful to the many great players that have played for the kiwis (akin to a few stories from a so called academic claiming Pasifika players have made the All Blacks what they are), and incredibly ignorant…

As for the Warriors, Stacey is ahead as a half, so he’s not even 1 in his position

 

[Penrose Warrior]

This is why I am very, very reluctant to get behind player-created content, despite the seductive sounding rationales offered for it e.g. that it cuts out the middleman, stops journos making up BS, etc etc

Yes it cuts out the middleman, but it doesn't get you any closer to the truth - rather, it just gives you a direct line to the "party line" from the player. This is exactly why journalism exists, because you can't just take what an inherently biased, self-interested party says as the gospel truth. Saying that only the player can give you the correct information about the player is straight up Orwellian logic.

You can see it happening in real time too, you only need to look at Instagram comments for example. Despite all the talk of trolling (which is definitely a real thing) the more striking feature is actually the cultish sycophancy.

This is the same reason I was hesitant to support SJ when he complained about "the trolls" a little while ago. In a lot of ways it's all an attempt by self-interested people to control the narrative and squash negative assessments of them, by replacing it with a biased pro-whoever narrative that frames all criticism as inherently bad.

Beyond that, it's also a pretty bad idea to take critique and analysis out of the hands of people who are actually educated in things like logic, reason, what a fact is etc, and hand it over entirely to footy players who may not have even a rudimentary education in how, say, logic works. If that sounds like pretentious philosophy student babble, well I think it's just as pretentious to think that only footy players are capable of understanding footy when we are all perfectly capable of watching it and more or less observing what is going on.

Yeah, so I was in the media in another life, so I know the machinations of that industry. Probably why I got so pissed off listening to the sycophantic raving about SJ's career.

Firstly, the league media is basically non-existent in NZ now. Being a Warriors player is as comfortable as anywhere in the competition. You're not being discussed on NRL360 unless you are a former Sydney star (RTS, AFB etc). When SJ said 'youse got what you wanted' in 2017, it was laughable. There was no media baying for blood, the World Cup was a non-event in the media. Media turn up to a scrum once a week, they ask really vague, uninsightful questions, then they push off until next week. When you're winning, a whole bunch of radio stations and hangers-on turn up and ask inane, bandwagon questions. When you're losing, it's the same 3-4 guys who don't, and maybe feel they can't, ask the hard questions because they get frozen out. The only 'objective' writer in this country in the mainstream is Chris Rattue, because he doesn't leave the office (and my god, is he bad).

As for podcasts, that's OK - I feel as if the younger generations of fans lap up anything their heroes say, now. I see it on social media. If you dare make a negative comment, you're jumped on by the 'die hards'. I feel like it might be a modern-day algorithm thing, where if you are pro-something - you are all in. You're the opposite of a critical thinker. All hail the thing I believe in, and I'll never listen to anything else. But my generation doesn't think that way, I certainly don't. I don't want to hear about how amazing Shaun is, how he's a God-tier Warrior...because that's not true. I remember hearing about how he didn't train hard, how his attitude was off, how he was arrogant as hell in his 2nd year and got dropped at the end of it, but I also remember the great stuff. That's the mature discussion I want - I can still say he did so many amazing things, but he left a lot on the table results-wise.

No doubt, poor journalism exists. In our country, it's weak, sloppy and half-arsed. But it's essential. The day that the news-makers create their own narrative is not a day to look fondly forward to. Podcasts are great, and they can shed light on things that the media don't have space to cover, or don't think is headline-worthy enough. But they can't be the only thing.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Calling him the greatest Kiwi (or even close) is incredibly disrespectful to the many great players that have played for the kiwis (akin to a few stories from a so called academic claiming Pasifika players have made the All Blacks what they are), and incredibly ignorant…

As for the Warriors, Stacey is ahead as a half, so he’s not even 1 in his position

Disrespectful for sure, I just find it lame. I find it uneducated, and I'm not going to listen to a podcast that claims to be insightful, when it trundles out that. The questions were really painful, actually.

And yeah, Shaun doesn't even make the all-time team at 7. Simon Mannering has him covered by the length of the country in terms of best Warrior. I'll grant him if we're talking longevity, the fact he's one of only five to play 200 games for the Warriors, his stellar 2023 season + his rookie year, and some big stints in between, that he's probably in the top 5.

But gee, people with longer memories and deeper passion for the Kiwis than me could probably name 15-20 Kiwis they'd have above him without drawing breath.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

I listen to a lot of league content over the course of a week at work, and listening this week has me pondering the question, do we under rate Shaun a bit over here ?

Personally I don’t think we do, but Ive heard comments all week from the likes of Cronk, Johns, Mason etc saying he has been an elite half, top 5 kiwi player of all time, most skilled player to ever come through and the plaudits like that just kept coming.

For me the highlight reel looks great, a very good career, but attitude and other factors pulled him back from reaching the all time great status that was his ceiling. Was it 4 finals series over his entire career ? Feel like an elite half should do better, but guess I contradict myself when I say I rate Stacey higher and he didn’t have a big finals number either

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I listen to a lot of league content over the course of a week at work, and listening this week has me pondering the question, do we under rate Shaun a bit over here ?

Personally I don’t think we do, but Ive heard comments all week from the likes of Cronk, Johns, Mason etc saying he has been an elite half, top 5 kiwi player of all time, most skilled player to ever come through and the plaudits like that just kept coming.

For me the highlight reel looks great, a very good career, but attitude and other factors pulled him back from reaching the all time great status that was his ceiling. Was it 4 finals series over his entire career ? Feel like an elite half should do better, but guess I contradict myself when I say I rate Stacey higher and he didn’t have a big finals number either

I believe this has more to do with them not following his career closely enough and not knowing enough about the Warriors.

I feel pretty confident, having watched nigh on every game of his career, that he isn't elite. Not consistently. He had elite games for the Kiwis, elite parts of seasons in the NRL and 2023 was near elite, but never strung any together enough to be elite. You could say to those guys you mentioned, tell me about SJs career year by year, and they couldn't. I can, and others can here, too.

I have Shaun slightly over Stacey but neither were elite.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

The last two weeks has told me all I knew already about Shaun, too. I've always loved the guy but I'm so sick of the farewell tour. He's milked it way too much. Can't cop that in a team sport. You can't care so much about what people think about you as Shaun did, and he's always read too much of his hype, bristled too much at the criticism, and although I think he got better in terms of work ethic and taking on advise/learning, he could have got better a lot quicker if he was humble in his 20s