The Forbidden Game-insightful book on what has & can happen

[magpie4ever]

English Rugby Union, and union has XV not XVIII on the pitch, sorry for the mistake :roll:

Have you read the book?

Thanks mate, so the RFU (my guess - Rugby Football Union) is the pommies.

No, I haven't read the book - disgusting action taken by a governing sports body during a terrible time in history.

Is MU right, in saying the frogs had been booted out by the IRB before this occurrence?

 

[BODISGOD]

Thanks mate, so the RFU (my guess - Rugby Football Union) is the pommies.

No, I haven't read the book - disgusting action taken by a governing sports body during a terrible time in history.

Is MU right, in saying the frogs had been booted out by the IRB before this occurrence?

Yes. Have a look at the history of FIRA.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRA_%E2%80%93_Association_of_European_Rugby

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Thanks mate, so the RFU (my guess - Rugby Football Union) is the pommies.

No, I haven't read the book - disgusting action taken by a governing sports body during a terrible time in history.

Is MU right, in saying the frogs had been booted out by the IRB before this occurrence?

Going to double check this today mate, it was in one chapter so should be easy to find again. If I have the time and it's not too big, I might type out the relevant parts for all to read and make their own conclusions.

 

[LJC]

I see where you are coming from, but LJC never so much as uttered anything that suggested he meant this.

He used this incident as an example to show hiow far RU WILL go to get rid of RL.

When in fact, this case in France was the most extreme case and it was one of French RU, not RU as a whole or as an international body.

The French RU back in that time were as I said, among, if not the worst run amateur sporting organisations in the world. No RU body prior or since has been as bad as that.

If we went back in time, I have no doubt that that French RU would do it again, every single time.

But if you took the Aust RU, NZ RU of that time and gave them that opportunity to side with the NAZI's to eradicate RL I have no doubt that they would not take it.

MU

The repression of RL is still going on in France to this day! RU, as you are aware, have and has "friends in high places" and this is evident around the world. A late example is that the French RL was trying to stage a game with TV coverage and this was thwarted by RU authorities making the ground unavailable. You get a picture that when RL has something promising happening the RU uses its influence to stop its success. It's still going on.

It(RU bias) is essentially a product of an educational system incorporating a wealthy private school/establishment mentality. This RU bias nurtures an opposition to RL and makes the path of RL difficult compared to other sports such as soccer.

I do add that "fast media"-I)internet websites, emails etc.) can carry the news of such despotic practices quicker than in past generations and this can be used to RL's advantage as I believe that ultimately "knowledge is power".

 

[LJC]

They distanced themselves a few years before Vichy didn't they?

And didn't the RFU actually get in contact with the FFR XVII or restart negotiations to play just as the Vichy mob took power, or was it a year or two later? I remember reading something about it in the book, it was so they could build a better relationship with the Brits/french at the time because of war.

I wouldn't put anything past any of them actually.

Yes. I would not put anything past the efforts of RU advocates in high places around the world!
Just look at the immense struggle the RL is facing to be officially recognized in South Africa and Russia today!
It(the repression) is still going on around the world and trying to isolate the French example as a one off example or repression is shear folly.

Repression of RL is very real and a sporting disgrace on the part of officialdom with agendas against the game of RL around the world.

Its a real struggle for our game and its even a struggle getting the truth out there!

 

[madunit]

They distanced themselves a few years before Vichy didn't they?

They did, but it was a build up of the appalling on-field performance, not results-wise, but violence-wise mostly, and the poorly kept secret that French Union players were being paid.

And didn't the RFU actually get in contact with the FFR XVII or restart negotiations to play just as the Vichy mob took power, or was it a year or two later? I remember reading something about it in the book, it was so they could build a better relationship with the Brits/french at the time because of war.

I wouldn't put anything past any of them actually.

I remember reading an opinion from a French journo in some newspaper archive many years ago that suggested the RFU was intent on keeping French RU out of international fixtures long enough for sporting relations between France and England to become much more amicable, via Rugby League.

The French Union team were secretly paid and brutally violent on the field.

The French League team were paid, as they were professionals, and were more inclined to play fast expansive football and less through the forwards, which made them entertaining to watch, immensely safer, physically to play against, and as they were fast learners and only starting in the RL World, quite humble and never outspoken.

France won the 1938-39 European Championship, played between France, England and Wales. This was the moment that France went from being an also-ran to a genuinely strong international outfit who deserved their place in international RL.

I assume that the RFU were contemplating an overhaul of the FRU administration to try and clean up the game and its image and then on the back of the new found good relations with England, start piggy backing on Rugby League's success.

 

[madunit]

MU

The repression of RL is still going on in France to this day!

and I will say this to you once again. I have not nor have I ever said or suggested it wasn't. Stop trying to pigeonhole me as something I'm not.

RU, as you are aware, have and has "friends in high places" and this is evident around the world. A late example is that the French RL was trying to stage a game with TV coverage and this was thwarted by RU authorities making the ground unavailable. You get a picture that when RL has something promising happening the RU uses its influence to stop its success. It's still going on.

I have never said, suggested or implied that this wasn't the case. You are arguing with yourself.

It(RU bias) is essentially a product of an educational system incorporating a wealthy private school/establishment mentality. This RU bias nurtures an opposition to RL and makes the path of RL difficult compared to other sports such as soccer.

I do add that "fast media"-I)internet websites, emails etc.) can carry the news of such despotic practices quicker than in past generations and this can be used to RL's advantage as I believe that ultimately "knowledge is power".

thats your opinion. I have no opinion on this as it moves away from what I research.

If you have some facts (ie - links) that support this, I'd be happy to have a read of them. If you have no facts, then I won't be pursuing this line of discussion any further, as an argument over an opinion is purely a waste of time with no result or purpose.

 

[madunit]

It(the repression) is still going on around the world and trying to isolate the French example as a one off example or repression is shear folly.

Repression of RL is very real and a sporting disgrace on the part of officialdom with agendas against the game of RL around the world.

Its a real struggle for our game and its even a struggle getting the truth out there!

I can't believe that you still haven't understood my point.

The French example deserves to be isolated because it saw a RU body in a country isolated from the world body. It then seized an opportunity to align itself with the NAZI party, using their morals and practices to remove RL.

That HAS NEVER happened prior to WWII and it HAS NEVER happened since.

That is why it should be isolated.

It is the UTMOST WORST CASE of RU's efforts to remove RL.

NOT the standard.

YES, RU has always tried and continues to try and make life difficult for RL.

Please LJC, answer this very simple question with either a 'yes' or a 'no'

Do you understand what I am saying?

Yes or No.

 

[Knownothing]

Yes. I would not put anything past the efforts of RU advocates in high places around the world!
Just look at the immense struggle the RL is facing to be officially recognized in South Africa and Russia today!
It(the repression) is still going on around the world and trying to isolate the French example as a one off example or repression is shear folly.

Repression of RL is very real and a sporting disgrace on the part of officialdom with agendas against the game of RL around the world.

Its a real struggle for our game and its even a struggle getting the truth out there!

No doubt I will be criticised for this opinion, as usual. However, it is a mistake to conflate events in France (now and in previous years) with those in Russia, equally with the situation in South Africa.

Russia, and Russians, do things their own way. The Russian Government refuses to allow the UN to take action against the use of chemical weapons by Syria, bugger the rest of the world. Journalists are killed for reporting political events. The Kremlin still runs the place. Do you honestly think that Russians are influenced by some kind of world conspiracy against rugby league?

South Africa is also pretty unusual. Rugby union was a bulwark of the white supremacist apartheid regimes. And yet now black politicians are engaged in a huge political fight to get an additional Super RU franchise into the competition, from a largely black province. The Saffers also do things their own way, from what I can see.

The French are the bloody French. They have always run their own race. It beggars the imagination to believe that they would take orders from anybody else, the IRB included - unless it suited their own vested interests to do so.

Your passion to right the wrongs of the past is admirable. However, as I have said before, what you see as the wrongs of the present are primarily about competition between two competing codes. The Russians seemed to be favouring rugby league a few years ago. Now the pendulum has turned, but it could easily turn back again. All it takes is for one oligarch to change his mind.

The first line in the novel "The Go-Between" by L.P. Hartley sums it up for me: "The past is foreign country; they do things differently there".

 

[Perth Red]

I don't agree the French incident is isolated at all, it is just at the far end of a continuum that has been happening for decades and around the world of union being immoral in its attempts to damage RL. Give the same set of circumstances I have no doubts union in some countries would do a Vichy in the blink of an eye.

 

[Knownothing]

I don't agree the French incident is isolated at all, it is just at the far end of a continuum that has been happening for decades and around the world of union being immoral in its attempts to damage RL. Give the same set of circumstances I have no doubts union in some countries would do a Vichy in the blink of an eye.

I can't argue with that sort of logic.

I suppose if the Second World War happens again, and the Germans invade France and install a puppet regime there, and also in all the other RU playing countries of the world, all our eyes would blink.

Apart from that fairly unlikely possibility, I repeat, there is nothing immoral in competition. That is what happens in professional sport. Codes compete against each other.

If RU is behaving illegally, under the laws of any country, then RL people should take action. Otherwise, stop bleating about immorality, it is not relevant. We are talking sport, not religion.

 

[magpie4ever]

As advised numerous times, if people are so concerned - raise a petition, request the IRLB to take these matters to court. Not continued preaching to the converted,

 

[LJC]

I understand your point and the "French farce" was a very apt and remarkable example, but I believe their are other similar cases of repression still limiting RL to this day. These examples of RU friends in high places making decisions to the detriment of RL are very real and extensive.

I have yet to see established political/administrative bureaucracies limiting the development of RU in any place around the world. And if it has occurred it would be nowhere near the level suffered by RL.

 

[hutch]

Read an article in rugby league world recently about the Great Britain pioneers recent trip to morocco and the problems they encountered with the local authorities with the backing of the royal Moroccan rugby (union) federation (RMRF). A few points were:

- rumours the RMRF applied pressure to government officials to block rugby league clubs from forming a national team as they were not a federally recognised body.
- team bus not turning up in efforts to halt games
- police kicking journalists out of stadium for reporting on league at the request of RMRF.
- wealthy backers have invested in union and see league as a threat.
- official letters sent from RMRF to all stadiums, players, referees, ground staff informing them that if the proposed match of pretend rugby goes ahead they will be banned from playing union and their clubs closed down. When the players arrived at the stadium they were told if they entered they would be removed by the police.
- the same thing happened to the touring Lebanon side the year before and was only allowed to go ahead at the lat moment providing the home team didn't called themself 'morocco'.

It is still happening today, give them a chance and they would wipe our sport in a heartbeat.

 

[madunit]

Only took 200 odd posts of repeating myself.....

 

[LJC]

I can't argue with that sort of logic.

I suppose if the Second World War happens again, and the Germans invade France and install a puppet regime there, and also in all the other RU playing countries of the world, all our eyes would blink.

Apart from that fairly unlikely possibility, I repeat, there is nothing immoral in competition. That is what happens in professional sport. Codes compete against each other.

If RU is behaving illegally, under the laws of any country, then RL people should take action. Otherwise, stop bleating about immorality, it is not relevant. We are talking sport, not religion.

Laughable!

You call the repression of RL by using government authorities as "competition"!

Remarkable.

I would call a major theme of competition to allowing an opportunity for each sport to have a fair go and not be repressed by the authorities that show a bias to another sport.

It would be great if RL were allowed to compete with RU on an even footing on a worldwide scale but this is not happening due to the repression that is happening courtesy of RU contacts and friends in high places that are able to make and enact bigoted decisions against another sport, namely RL!

 

[Te Kaha]

friends in high places

You keep mentioning these people.. who are they? since you claim they exist, you must know who they are.. so come on.. unless its your opinion only, then tell us.. who are they?

 

[madunit]

I understand your point and the "French farce" was a very apt and remarkable example, but I believe their are other similar cases of repression still limiting RL to this day.

There are no cases remotely similar to a disgraced RU body siding with NAZI's to delete RL.

These examples of RU friends in high places making decisions to the detriment of RL are very real and extensive.

I never said or suggested anything aletrnate to that.

I have yet to see established political/administrative bureaucracies limiting the development of RU in any place around the world. And if it has occurred it would be nowhere near the level suffered by RL.

How in the hell can you say that when I've mentioned a few from Australia alone repeatedly in this thread already???

As I've explained, they were on a smaller scale in comparison with wrongs done by RU on RL, but it happened.

Two Labor politicians, Henry Hoyle (The first NSWRL President) and Edward Larkin (The first full-time NSWRL Secretary) were involved in the scheme that saw Rugby League introduced into Catholic Schools, with the plan to cut off grass roots Rugby and create a strong and viable juniors RL Community at schoolboy level, which worked, with many catholic schools dropping Union altogether.

RL bosses also set up a team in the Sydney University to play in the first grade competition from 1920 to 1938. They were not paid and were allowed to remain as amateurs, after the RL lobbied the Govt at the time to allow such a unique arrangement to take place.

Larkin was the man who helped lead the push to poach the Wallabies in 1909.

When the South African RU side toured to Australia in the 1930's, Harry Sunderland approached them to see if they would switch codes.

All of these were direct and deliberate attacks on RU.

None of them are anywhere near as severe as what RU has done to RL in most countries since day dot.

But they are examples nonetheless which I've already mentioned and which you argued against and, now it appears clear, blatantly ignored.

 

[LJC]

There are no cases remotely similar to a disgraced RU body siding with NAZI's to delete RL. I never said or suggested anything aletrnate to that.

How in the hell can you say that when I've mentioned a few from Australia alone repeatedly in this thread already???

As I've explained, they were on a smaller scale in comparison with wrongs done by RU on RL, but it happened.

Two Labor politicians, Henry Hoyle (The first NSWRL President) and Edward Larkin (The first full-time NSWRL Secretary) were involved in the scheme that saw Rugby League introduced into Catholic Schools, with the plan to cut off grass roots Rugby and create a strong and viable juniors RL Community at schoolboy level, which worked, with many catholic schools dropping Union altogether.

RL bosses also set up a team in the Sydney University to play in the first grade competition from 1920 to 1938. They were not paid and were allowed to remain as amateurs, after the RL lobbied the Govt at the time to allow such a unique arrangement to take place.

Larkin was the man who helped lead the push to poach the Wallabies in 1909.

When the South African RU side toured to Australia in the 1930's, Harry Sunderland approached them to see if they would switch codes.

All of these were direct and deliberate attacks on RU.

None of them are anywhere near as severe as what RU has done to RL in most countries since day dot.

But they are examples nonetheless which I've already mentioned and which you argued against and, now it appears clear, blatantly ignored.

?

Glad you have highlighted in bold what we agree on.

It's not a mistake to highlight and explore this very real repression of our game.

You have seen many examples brought up on this thread.
I'm sure their are many more.

RU has many "friends in high places" and this is directly associated and related to the private school bias toward RU in many affluent schools.

You may not agree but this is where this untoward "repression " of RL from people in high administrative/government positions is emanating from.
Once again you have highlighted that with
"None of them are anywhere near as severe as what RU has done to RL in most countries since day dot."

So lets explore and discuss this "repression" as it is negatively affecting RL to this day. It's reality and explains many things such as how an antiquated form of rugby(RU) is deemed to be more "international" than a faster, more action packed version of rugby in RL.

It's well worth the discussion and exploration. This thread has witnessed some very real examples of repression which otherwise would never have been discussed or sighted by RL supporters and the trolls from other sports.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

We shouldn't be arguing amongst ourselves over things we can not change from 70 years ago, we should be doing all we can to raise the profile of the French game so it can become a viable comp on its own again.

You know what the ARLC should put together that would be beneficial to RL as a whole and wouldn't really cost that much? (imo I have no idea of the cost)

Offer a Language course at Tafe/Uni whatever that involves becoming a RL sports development Officer, imagine some of the places you could be sent to teach RL, get them DOs out there.