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The Forbidden Game-insightful book on what has & can happen

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
If criminality is, or was, involved, as alleged, then why doesn't somebody do something about it?



Are the relevant rugby league administrators inept? Weak? Unable to protect their sport?



What about the international governing body? Is it taking this "criminality" seriously? If not, why not?


This when I really miss Calixte. He would have some answers. :cool:
The French Govt acknowledged that RL was the victim of devious behaviour by French RU during Vichy rule, but that wasn't until 2002. It wasn't until 1993 that League in France was allowed to use the word Rugby.

There are lobby groups in France that are demanding an apology for all crimes and deviant acts committed by the Vichy Govt during WWII. The list is very long, as you could imagine. The French Govt in 2002 had suggested that an apology for these crimes under Vichy is likely to be forthcoming but recompense was not likely, mostly because there's a fair chance the French Govt simply doesn't have the funds.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Interesting the French rugby league had 300,000 Francs in the bank ,at the time of their dismissal.
What that would be worth in today's money I have not a clue.
But working on the basis of money doubling every ten years,I estimate 38,500,000 francs plus interest due over 72 years.In Euros????

No wonder the French govt wants to steer clear of recompense.If it had been another more popular code,with more current political clout(insert ru),it may be a different story.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
The RL had assets too which were handed straight to RU as well.

The fact French RL had saved that much money in its first 5 years of existence shows just how quickly it swept France.

French Rugby fans were bored & even disgusted at the Union game. The thuggery on fueld (which saw one player killed) had them suspended from test matches by the international body. The only country that would 'international' games against them was Germany.

League came along, it was faster & had more flair & the international RL council almost immediately began playing international games against France.

This clever ploy of diving head first into international games was a success & the growth of French RL came off the back of it.

Furthermore, the code was open & transparent about paying players, as it was part if RL's entire purpose initially. French RU players were mostly paid, but in secret, so that they didn't lose their amateur status.
 

LJC

Juniors
Messages
584
The French Govt acknowledged that RL was the victim of devious behaviour by French RU during Vichy rule, but that wasn't until 2002. It wasn't until 1993 that League in France was allowed to use the word Rugby.

There are lobby groups in France that are demanding an apology for all crimes and deviant acts committed by the Vichy Govt during WWII. The list is very long, as you could imagine. The French Govt in 2002 had suggested that an apology for these crimes under Vichy is likely to be forthcoming but recompense was not likely, mostly because there's a fair chance the French Govt simply doesn't have the funds.

Perhaps the French RU should pay up!? They certainly have the money and connections.

MU I do not think you are a RU apologist on the basis of your recent posts. Obviously I'm ignoring your rude comments and I'm sure you would do the same if you were to read the insults delivered.

Your rudeness is something you have to deal with on your own terms.

I have a clear understanding of the impact RU and its friends in high places are having on the game of RL and I am now noting that you have the same concern. This is the major issue for RL and its growth.
You do acknowledge that their are various examples of RU repression on the game of RL around the world and this is great to see.
I've recently seen what has happened to RL in Russia and once again people in high places have made a decision to not certify RL as a sport in this country in preference to RU purely due to RU7s getting Olympic status. It looks very much like "whatever excuse is about lets stop RL" scenario in many areas of the world. Furthermore, RL has had to declare itself as an amateur code to have a chance of being officially accepted by the government. Im sure a sport like soccer hasn't had to go through this persecution/repression like RL has!
It's astonishing what is going on! RU's friends in high places have had and continue to have an immense impact on limiting the growth/existence of RL. More people should know more about this. At the moment only very few people do know about this repression of our great sport.
I hope that RL can be more proactive and do something about this grossly untoward and unfair treatment of our game.
 

Knownothing

Juniors
Messages
764
Maybe part of the answer is for rugby league to develop some "friends in high places". It might take a fair bit of time, and effort, (and money) but it could be done.


The worst thing that rugby league supporters can do is to look for easy answers, and conspicuous scapegoats, frankly. Rugby union does have some advantages, no doubt about it. But their biggest advantage is that the IRB is a far stronger, more financially powerful, and more effective entity than the rugby league equivalent.


The IRB was nothing 30 years ago. The rugby union world cup did not exist 30 years ago. The international Sevens circuit certainly did not exist back then, either. Rugby league needs to follow a similar path. Stop complaining about things you cannot change - particularly events that happened 70 years ago, and start planning and committing resources to establish a genuine international governing body. Fund it, and, most importantly, respect it - and if the NRL is not prepared to put up most of the funds, and in return, give up most of its autonomy over the rules, international schedules, national qualifications, etc, then you can forget all about friends in high places.

If rugby league in Australia was fair dinkum about encouraging the game to grow globally, tough decisions would have to be made.


Make the tough decisions, do the hard yards, put up the money, and stop blaming other people.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
Perhaps the French RU should pay up!? They certainly have the money and connections.
Legally, French RU didn't create and pass the law that saw RL 'deleted' or their assets handed over to Union. Rugby Union certainly benefitted directly and almost solely out of RL's demise, but it was the Vichy Govt that passed the decree, which absolves them of any responsibility, even though its pretty clear that they were behind the push. It's a governmental issue.

MU I do not think you are a RU apologist on the basis of your recent posts.
none of my posts anywhere, on any forum, at any point in time, supports Rugby Union. But at least you've started to learn how to read.
Obviously I'm ignoring your rude comments and I'm sure you would do the same if you were to read the insults delivered.
Nothing I said is on a par with the insult you hurled at me, without provocation and without apology. You deserved everything you got and I will stand by all of it until you apologise for calling me a Union apologist.

Your rudeness is something you have to deal with on your own terms.
You provoked me!! You have issues to deal with. If you hadn't called me a f**king apologist for Union, I would never have spoken so harshly towards you. You caused that. I don't have to deal with anything.

I have a clear understanding of the impact RU and its friends in high places are having on the game of RL and I am now noting that you have the same concern. This is the major issue for RL and its growth.
Most people do. My point all along was that it was RL's birth and the interaction of the two codes directly after that caused RU to have such a major dislike for RL. RU felt betrayed, because it's mistreated players wanted better, so they created a solution, Rugby League.
You do acknowledge that their are various examples of RU repression on the game of RL around the world and this is great to see.
So now you finally realise that I was never against RL. Better late than never.
I've recently seen what has happened to RL in Russia and once again people in high places have made a decision to not certify RL as a sport in this country in preference to RU purely due to RU7s getting Olympic status. It looks very much like "whatever excuse is about lets stop RL" scenario in many areas of the world. Furthermore, RL has had to declare itself as an amateur code to have a chance of being officially accepted by the government. Im sure a sport like soccer hasn't had to go through this persecution/repression like RL has!
It's astonishing what is going on! RU's friends in high places have had and continue to have an immense impact on limiting the growth/existence of RL. More people should know more about this. At the moment only very few people do know about this repression of our great sport.
I hope that RL can be more proactive and do something about this grossly untoward and unfair treatment of our game.
In my view, the RLIF today is as equally to blame as Rugby Union. RU bullies RL out of these emerging countries and the RLIF does sweet f**k all to help them out.

We need a much stronger and dominant International body. Sadly, it appears the pinnacle in World Rugby League is when two states in one country place each other in a game.

It's one thing to sit here and bitch about all that RU has done to RL, no matter how right the bitching is, but it won't mean shit until we get an International body with balls that can and will defend, support and fight for each emerging country's existence and right to life.

Until that happens, RU will just keep bullying the game wherever and whenever it wants.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
If criminality is, or was, involved, as alleged, then why doesn't somebody do something about it?



Are the relevant rugby league administrators inept? Weak? Unable to protect their sport?



What about the international governing body? Is it taking this "criminality" seriously? If not, why not?


This when I really miss Calixte. He would have some answers. :cool:


The French Govt in 2002,as a result of their Commission looking into Sport under Vichy chaired by M Buffett,spelt it out clearly and succinctly.That the FRU was out to see a competitor removed.They pointed the finger directly at the code involved.They(ru officialdom) lobbied the Occupation Govt putting pressure on them.They were the ones that could see rugby league growing hugely pre WW2.
Neither the IRLB nor the FRL has the financial resources to seek recompense.The decision to ban the code was made by an occupation Govt,and the findings were the result of a French Govt Commission.If the IRLB or the FRL had the financial wherewithall,they could mount a decent legal challenge.

QED it should be the responsibility of the French Govt to make recompense,as they have done for other entities and people who suffered ATT.
The reason they probably won't do this,because @ it would upset the French ru,who have tremendous influence there. B) It would cost a motza.
 

Plumplechook

Juniors
Messages
90
Jeez - this thread. Never thought it would be possible for a sport to have a persecution complex. And all to do with something that might have happened in war-torn France 70 years ago (as if the fate of rugby league was the biggest issue on the table in WWII).

Get over it.
 

ParraEelsNRL

Referee
Messages
27,731
Jeez - this thread. Never thought it would be possible for a sport to have a persecution complex. And all to do with something that might have happened in war-torn France 70 years ago (as if the fate of rugby league was the biggest issue on the table in WWII).

Get over it.

Great, stick your head in the sand you fool and the same thing will happen again.

Get in your box, flip.
 

ParraEelsNRL

Referee
Messages
27,731
Maybe part of the answer is for rugby league to develop some "friends in high places". It might take a fair bit of time, and effort, (and money) but it could be done.


The worst thing that rugby league supporters can do is to look for easy answers, and conspicuous scapegoats, frankly. Rugby union does have some advantages, no doubt about it. But their biggest advantage is that the IRB is a far stronger, more financially powerful, and more effective entity than the rugby league equivalent.


The IRB was nothing 30 years ago. The rugby union world cup did not exist 30 years ago. The international Sevens circuit certainly did not exist back then, either. Rugby league needs to follow a similar path. Stop complaining about things you cannot change - particularly events that happened 70 years ago, and start planning and committing resources to establish a genuine international governing body. Fund it, and, most importantly, respect it - and if the NRL is not prepared to put up most of the funds, and in return, give up most of its autonomy over the rules, international schedules, national qualifications, etc, then you can forget all about friends in high places.

If rugby league in Australia was fair dinkum about encouraging the game to grow globally, tough decisions would have to be made.


Make the tough decisions, do the hard yards, put up the money, and stop blaming other people.


LOL, you don't want to play the blame game which is kind of expected, yet you want to blame and put everything at the foot of the people who ran RL.

Ahhhh, good one mate.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
The French Govt in 2002,as a result of their Commission looking into Sport under Vichy chaired by M Buffett,spelt it out clearly and succinctly.That the FRU was out to see a competitor removed.They pointed the finger directly at the code involved.They(ru officialdom) lobbied the Occupation Govt putting pressure on them.They were the ones that could see rugby league growing hugely pre WW2.
Neither the IRLB nor the FRL has the financial resources to seek recompense.The decision to ban the code was made by an occupation Govt,and the findings were the result of a French Govt Commission.If the IRLB or the FRL had the financial wherewithall,they could mount a decent legal challenge.

QED it should be the responsibility of the French Govt to make recompense,as they have done for other entities and people who suffered ATT.
The reason they probably won't do this,because @ it would upset the French ru,who have tremendous influence there. B) It would cost a motza.

The cost being the most major factor there.

The fact French RL had so much money in the bank after less than half a decade in a country where Union players were being paid anyway shows just fast and far the game grew in such a small amount of time, not to mention how well the French RL was run and managed as well.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
Jeez - this thread. Never thought it would be possible for a sport to have a persecution complex. And all to do with something that might have happened in war-torn France 70 years ago (as if the fate of rugby league was the biggest issue on the table in WWII).

Get over it.
not 'might have happened'.

Did happen.

The French Government agreed that RL was a victim of devious acts by the Vichy Govt.
 
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Knownothing

Juniors
Messages
764
LOL, you don't want to play the blame game which is kind of expected, yet you want to blame and put everything at the foot of the people who ran RL.

Ahhhh, good one mate.


Up to you what you think. Ditto for all of us. I am simply making the point that there is an awful lot that rugby league could do to help itself. Do you agree?


Not sure what blame has to do with it. If it makes you feel better to blame somebody, fine with me. I have been around long enough to know that it is always better to look for positive actions to improve things, especially actions that are within your own control.


There is plenty that rugby league could do to enhance its international standing and competitiveness. The game itself has some natural advantages, it should be more attractive in many ways in Africa and Asia. All it would take to make progress is for the people in high places in rugby league to get off their butts and make some sacrifices.


People sitting around criticising other codes for what they have or haven't done is totally unproductive. All it amounts to is preaching to the converted. Which, by any measure is not a particularly worthwhile thing to do, when you have limited preaching resources.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Jeez - this thread. Never thought it would be possible for a sport to have a persecution complex. And all to do with something that might have happened in war-torn France 70 years ago (as if the fate of rugby league was the biggest issue on the table in WWII).

Get over it.


Crime pays mentality.
The French Govt inquiry confirmed it did happen,but an armchair critic says it may have happened.the Great train Robbery might have happened and Ronnie Biggs may have been just a figment of peoples' minds.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
The cost being the most major factor there.

The fact French RL had so much money in the bank after less than half a decade in a country where Union players were being paid anyway shows just fast and far the game grew in such a small amount of time, not to mention how well the French RL was run and managed as well.

Think it is fair to say the French rl,would be more than happy to be recompensed the equivalent into today's monies, of 300,000 Francs (money held ATT pre Dec 41),

Equipment etc pretty hard to quantify that.

And of course the "opportunity"costs ,could never put a value on that.


It still strikes me as strange a Govt Commission can come up with damning findings,and just let it lie.
Probably why we get some of the deluders ,suggesting let's forget it.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
The thing that strikes me about the whole saga in France is that the French Govt admitted that RL had been a victim of the Vichy Govt.

But wouldn't apologise.

People within the French RL are still actively pursuing an apology from the French Govt. It seems they want the apology more than the lost monies.
 

Knownothing

Juniors
Messages
764
The thing that strikes me about the whole saga in France is that the French Govt admitted that RL had been a victim of the Vichy Govt.

But wouldn't apologise.

People within the French RL are still actively pursuing an apology from the French Govt. It seems they want the apology more than the lost monies.


I know very little about French law. But one reason that Howard refused to apologise for the "stolen generations" was to avoid the possibility of financial compensation. That is possibly the case in France. How many governments, and for how many years, has compensation been denied?


Again, I know little about this, but have the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and all the others who were persecuted, denaturalised, and in some cases sent to their deaths in Nazi death camps under the Vichy regime been compensated finanacially?
 

LJC

Juniors
Messages
584
MU.
I do apologize for referring to you as a RU apologist.
What concerns me is the lack of general knowledge about the repression that RL has had to endure over the years and to this day.
In a world of "fast" media I believe that more awareness of this universal repression of RL can become general knowledge. I showed a decent and respected local RL official an article that summarized the French example and his reaction was: "What! The bastards! I had no idea that this had gone on! .......It gives you an idea that this sort of stuff could happen all over!"
It is quite logical if you reason: that how does a less attractive code(RU) is more universal compared to a more entertaining "elite" form of rugby(RL)which has been limited to the backwaters or scuttled at every move for acceptance and growth in many areas of the world.
A number of factors have caused and perpetuated this repression of RL. It's up to RL to let people know about what has gone on. This will assist RL being more accepted in places that are oblivious to such knowledge. Fair-minded people will warm to RL's plight and of course their will be individuals that will refuse to acknowledge what has and is going on and this is prevalent in other discourses as well.
Greater awareness is part of the answer along with RL bodies having a unified stance to pursue some justice. I believe the Australian RL can lead the way in the game gaining universal acceptance but it must be carefully planned and coordinated with the rest of the RL world.
Human rights is another angle that may be pursued in so far as litigation and compensation issues are concerned. It is a big deal yet not many people know about it! It (the repression of RL)needs to be known and acted upon.
 
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Knownothing

Juniors
Messages
764
I showed a decent and respected local RL official an article that summarized the French example and his reaction was: "What! The bastards! I had no idea that this had gone on! .......It gives you an idea that this sort of stuff could happen all over!"
So this local RL official had no idea that rugby league was ever persecuted? Even in his own country? That kind of undercuts the point a bit, doesn't it?


It is a big deal yet not many people know about it! It (the repression of RL)needs to be known and acted upon.


If it is happening, of course people would know about it.
 

Te Kaha

First Grade
Messages
5,998
People within the French RL are still actively pursuing an apology from the French Govt. It seems they want the apology more than the lost monies.

This may be because any theft occured outside Frances Statute of limitations on theft:
"Real Property" Action" eg theft
--- As from the date on which the rights holder was made aware, or should have been made aware, of the facts enabling said rights to be excercised
--- Period 20 Years
--- French Civil Code Article 2227

It could be that there is no way, by legal means, for French RL to sue French Rugby.
 

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