The Forbidden Game-insightful book on what has & can happen

[LJC]

So this local RL official had no idea that rugby league was ever persecuted? Even in his own country? That kind of undercuts the point a bit, doesn't it?





If it is happening, of course people would know about it.

Some people like us know about it, but not the general public at large!

That is the real problem besides the continued repression of the game.

The casual observer has no idea of the struggle RL has had to endure to exist and grow. It's well hidden courtesy of apathy from officials, who should know better, and a well organized RU effort that uses the establishment to do its dirty work through its friends in high places all over the world. That is why this thread is necessary given the lack of knowledge and awareness of what has and can happen to a sport like RL.

I know this thread won't rectify the issue of repression but at least we are discussing it and hopefully something may happen.

Letting the general public at large know of what has happened and what can happen is a good start for our game to progress.

The truth has been well hidden by those that have positions of power around the world.

It's a very establishment based prejudice against RL, but as we are talking about a sport that is enjoyed by many people and not known by even more , I think it's time the real reasons for RL's relatively slow growth should be exposed.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Up to you what you think. Ditto for all of us.

I am simply making the point that there is an awful lot that rugby league could do to help itself. Do you agree?

Absolutely agree 100%.

Not sure what blame has to do with it.

Blame, as in passing the buck, wiping your hands, whatever, you can call it what you like.

It seems that there is one side that does not want to look at the real picture, as I posted above you might want to add putting your head in the sand too.

If it makes you feel better to blame somebody, fine with me. I have been around long enough to know that it is always better to look for positive actions to improve things, especially actions that are within your own control.

I am not blaming anyone, I know what happened within the war years to an extent and I myself have always wondered why Australia-NZ-England didn't do or say more to help out a nation in need when the playing of the games resumed after the hostilities ceased. Actually, I take that back, I don't know what any of these nations said or done, they may have done nothing yet they also may have made a song and dance but were heard by deaf ears as usual. I'd love to know if they did though.

There is plenty that rugby league could do to enhance its international standing and competitiveness. The game itself has some natural advantages, it should be more attractive in many ways in Africa and Asia. All it would take to make progress is for the people in high places in rugby league to get off their butts and make some sacrifices.

I know, and I think the game is on the right track now after years of infighting caused by Rupert and Kerry.

People sitting around criticising other codes for what they have or haven't done is totally unproductive. All it amounts to is preaching to the converted. Which, by any measure is not a particularly worthwhile thing to do, when you have limited preaching resources.

I think it's is a good thing to let people know the history of their fav sport be it good or bad, I believe RL can hold its head high when compared to a lot of other sports especially when it comes to discrimination and other such matters be it having the first gay man in a mens pro sport to come out, to the first black man Captaining Great Britain, or being the code in France where the Gypsies could play along side their fellow Frenchmen.

Rugby League has had to be the seagull of the sports world to survive and along the way, it has had to break down a hellava lot of barriers to do so, so yes, the more that know what the game has had to go through to get where it is, the more passionate support it will get and that's is not a bad thing as I see it.

Your history is your own history, you can not change what has happened in the past, but you can try and stop it happening again in the future.

 

[Bronco Rob]

The Forbidden Game is a great read and anyone who reads it will be mortified at the events that occurred and what could have been for the game had they not happended. The RU sympathisers can defend or say what they want, the fact is that the course of the game of RL was changed forever with what happened and although we can't change the past it certainly was detrimental for the game of Rugby League.

Another great book is 'Rugby's Class War' written by David Hinchliffe, a UK politician who was instrumental in creating the Parliamentary Rugby League Group to fight against the discrimination that was occurring in the UK. Another eye-opening read on the discrimination faced by the game.

 

[LJC]

As their is a proven track record of discrimination/repression of our game, I think it is paramount that the game get behind a concerted effort to assist the Russian league as a similar fate is waiting for it as we have in France!
Let's see what happens.

Hope the World Cup is a success. This great game deserves it!
I hope the TV coverage is decent and viewer friendly.

 

[madunit]

I know very little about French law. But one reason that Howard refused to apologise for the "stolen generations" was to avoid the possibility of financial compensation. That is possibly the case in France. How many governments, and for how many years, has compensation been denied?


Again, I know little about this, but have the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and all the others who were persecuted, denaturalised, and in some cases sent to their deaths in Nazi death camps under the Vichy regime been compensated finanacially?

Well to be fair.

RL's existence in France stopped existing for a brief period. Sure what happened was atrocious, but no one was killed or a victim of the holocaust etc because of it. So thus I don't think the treatment of RL in France at the time can be compared to the deaths of thousands upon thousands of Jewish citizens etc.

I don't think the French RL are really that interested in compensation. I think they just want an apology, which is still not forthcoming.

 

[madunit]

MU.
I do apologize for referring to you as a RU apologist.
What concerns me is the lack of general knowledge about the repression that RL has had to endure over the years and to this day.
In a world of "fast" media I believe that more awareness of this universal repression of RL can become general knowledge. I showed a decent and respected local RL official an article that summarized the French example and his reaction was: "What! The bastards! I had no idea that this had gone on! .......It gives you an idea that this sort of stuff could happen all over!"

I have a bone to pick with that mindset "This could happen all over"

RL could be victimised by RU, no doubt.

But RU siding with a war mongering politicial party purely to get control over RL has only happened once. Which ahs been one of my points all along. It shows the lengths RU have gone to in the past to damage RL, but it is the most extreme case ever which is why its an exceptional case. It is by no means the standard form of action taken by RU against RL.

I have no issue with RL fans hating RU for how they've treated the game. But by no means will I join a lynch mob who believe that what French RU did in Vichy is by any means, the norm for RU when dealing with a rival code, because that is just not true.

RU has attacked RL in many countries in many various ways for a long time. But only once have they ever sided with a political party like the NAZI's, who aimed to invade countries and take them over and kill off all members of a specific religion, purely to get an advantage over RL.

That incident alone is a one off. RU will never resort to that level ever again, mostly because the likes of another NAZI party starting wars again, with the size and power they had, is likely to occur again in a country where RL and RU are essentially equals.

This cannot be argued against.

It is quite logical if you reason: that how does a less attractive code(RU) is more universal compared to a more entertaining "elite" form of rugby(RL)which has been limited to the backwaters or scuttled at every move for acceptance and growth in many areas of the world.
A number of factors have caused and perpetuated this repression of RL. It's up to RL to let people know about what has gone on. This will assist RL being more accepted in places that are oblivious to such knowledge. Fair-minded people will warm to RL's plight and of course their will be individuals that will refuse to acknowledge what has and is going on and this is prevalent in other discourses as well.
Greater awareness is part of the answer along with RL bodies having a unified stance to pursue some justice. I believe the Australian RL can lead the way in the game gaining universal acceptance but it must be carefully planned and coordinated with the rest of the RL world.
Human rights is another angle that may be pursued in so far as litigation and compensation issues are concerned. It is a big deal yet not many people know about it! It (the repression of RL)needs to be known and acted upon.

It's up to RL to look to the future.
It's up to RL to have an international body that has some clout and some balls that will stand up for all the emerging nations to see the game grow.
We will not go anywhere by playing the victim card solely and all stand around crying and saying "RU were nasty to us. It's not fair"

There are always two sides to a story and to understand the whole story properly, one must allow themselves to see both sides of the story.

The French RL story detailed in the Forbidden Game, is entirely unique. The French RU at the time were the worst run amateur sporting body, possibly in the world. Amateur's being paid large sums of money quietly, being kicked out of International competition for their bad sportsmanship and excessively violent style of play which saw one young player killed on the field. No RU body in the history of the game has been as shambolic as the French RU in the 1920's through til the late 1940's. This shambolic organisation affiliated themselves with NAZI's, like parasites, to ensure their game survived.

Never again, in my honest opinion, will that sort of thing ever happen again.

But as I already said, that does not mean RU won't try to do all it can to dominate RL where it can either.

 

[madunit]

This may be because any theft occured outside Frances Statute of limitations on theft:
"Real Property" Action" eg theft
--- As from the date on which the rights holder was made aware, or should have been made aware, of the facts enabling said rights to be excercised
--- Period 20 Years
--- French Civil Code Article 2227

It could be that there is no way, by legal means, for French RL to sue French Rugby.

That may be the case.

Another grey area surrounds the legitimacy of the Vichy Govt as well. If they are deemed to have not been a legitimate government, then the theft conducted by them isn't the French Govt's fault either.

meaning the French RL would have no one to sue in the first place.

However, in saying all that, French RL had struggled against its own Govt since its inception. The game of RL had a few fights with the French Govt prior to 1934 as well.

Getting an apology means a hell of a lot more to French RL than any money. Its an admission of wrong doing and opens the doors to allow RL to have an equal footing in France with RU.

French RL officials know that if they were equals with French RU, they wouldn't take long to overtake RU in the country again.

 

[WireMan]

Rugby League is great.


I like that RU has tried to kill RL since the 1890's. The fact that RL is still played at any level is a rare victory against the chattering classes.
The fact the RU has gone professional, and tried to go more like RL makes me chuckle even more. Does RL want to introduce flankers? No. Both games are going the same way, and it isn't the current Union way.


An apology from the French would be nice. I wouldn't count on it though.
They are French. Most untrustworthy nation in the world.

 

[The Great Dane]

I have a bone to pick with that mindset "This could happen all over"

RL could be victimised by RU, no doubt.

But RU siding with a war mongering politicial party purely to get control over RL has only happened once. Which ahs been one of my points all along. It shows the lengths RU have gone to in the past to damage RL, but it is the most extreme case ever which is why its an exceptional case. It is by no means the standard form of action taken by RU against RL.

I have no issue with RL fans hating RU for how they've treated the game. But by no means will I join a lynch mob who believe that what French RU did in Vichy is by any means, the norm for RU when dealing with a rival code, because that is just not true.

RU has attacked RL in many countries in many various ways for a long time. But only once have they ever sided with a political party like the NAZI's, who aimed to invade countries and take them over and kill off all members of a specific religion, purely to get an advantage over RL.

That incident alone is a one off. RU will never resort to that level ever again, mostly because the likes of another NAZI party starting wars again, with the size and power they had, is likely to occur again in a country where RL and RU are essentially equals.

This cannot be argued against.



It's up to RL to look to the future.
It's up to RL to have an international body that has some clout and some balls that will stand up for all the emerging nations to see the game grow.
We will not go anywhere by playing the victim card solely and all stand around crying and saying "RU were nasty to us. It's not fair"

There are always two sides to a story and to understand the whole story properly, one must allow themselves to see both sides of the story.

The French RL story detailed in the Forbidden Game, is entirely unique. The French RU at the time were the worst run amateur sporting body, possibly in the world. Amateur's being paid large sums of money quietly, being kicked out of International competition for their bad sportsmanship and excessively violent style of play which saw one young player killed on the field. No RU body in the history of the game has been as shambolic as the French RU in the 1920's through til the late 1940's. This shambolic organisation affiliated themselves with NAZI's, like parasites, to ensure their game survived.

Never again, in my honest opinion, will that sort of thing ever happen again.

But as I already said, that does not mean RU won't try to do all it can to dominate RL where it can either.

I agree with you, but I think your overlooking one thing and that's if they could go back and change the way they acted would they?
My experience with RU tells me that there's no way in hell they'd change the way they acted and that leads me to believe that if given the opportunity to do something similar to what happened in France again RU would take it.

Though I completely agree with you that the chances of an event like what happened in France ever happening again are next to none, I think you misunderstand what LJC and the others are trying to say.

What they are trying to say is that if a RU were willing to do something like this and we have no reason to believe that they would not be willing to do it again, then where do they draw the line? What other lengths are they willing to go to in attempts to destroy RL!?

That is where their concern and anger comes from, whether the French RL gets compensation or even a apology is neither here nor there what's done is done and a apology is never going to change that.

I like that RU has tried to kill RL since the 1890's. The fact that RL is still played at any level is a rare victory against the chattering classes.
The fact the RU has gone professional, and tried to go more like RL makes me chuckle even more. Does RL want to introduce flankers? No. Both games are going the same way, and it isn't the current Union way.

This is the ultimate vengeance for all the crap that RU has done to RL, the fact that to keep RU in the headlines when competing with soccer and other sports on the international stage they are having to change their game to make it more and more like RL is a great example of what the sports fans around the world are interested in when it comes to sport and the fact that the RU is very slowly starting to make their game more and more expansive and fast paced shows that RL has huge potential and if we can get our sh!t together and work hard to meet that potential RL could become huge.

 

[madunit]

I agree with you, but I think your overlooking one thing and that's if they could go back and change the way they acted would they?
My experience with RU tells me that there's no way in hell they'd change the way they acted and that leads me to believe that if given the opportunity to do something similar to what happened in France again RU would take it.

Though I completely agree with you that the chances of an event like what happened in France ever happening again are next to none, I think you misunderstand what LJC and the others are trying to say.

What they are trying to say is that if a RU were willing to do something like this and we have no reason to believe that they would not be willing to do it again, then where do they draw the line? What other lengths are they willing to go to in attempts to destroy RL!?

That is where their concern and anger comes from, whether the French RL gets compensation or even a apology is neither here nor there what's done is done and a apology is never going to change that.

I see where you are coming from, but LJC never so much as uttered anything that suggested he meant this.

He used this incident as an example to show hiow far RU WILL go to get rid of RL.

When in fact, this case in France was the most extreme case and it was one of French RU, not RU as a whole or as an international body.

The French RU back in that time were as I said, among, if not the worst run amateur sporting organisations in the world. No RU body prior or since has been as bad as that.

If we went back in time, I have no doubt that that French RU would do it again, every single time.

But if you took the Aust RU, NZ RU of that time and gave them that opportunity to side with the NAZI's to eradicate RL I have no doubt that they would not take it.

 

[Perth Red]

There is no limit to what RU will go to to try and stunt the growth of RL. Just the latest in a very long line of scum actions:

The Great Britain Student Rugby League Pioneers have returned from an eventful trip to Morocco, where their playing schedule was interrupted by a combination of rugby union intrusion and unavailable facilities.
Head of the FMRL organising committee, Rachid Ouardi, said: “I want to thank our friends who helped us challenge all the FRMR’s (Moroccan rugby union) attempts to block the tour, and also the Pioneers staff and players for their understanding of our problems and their close support for our attempts to end this discrimination.”
Squad member Mike Butcher left Morocco with a greater appreciation of the opportunities afforded to British rugby league players after experiencing the efforts taken by the Moroccan rugby union establishment to curtail the activities of the fledgling FMRL. “I’m shocked and angry, I’ve read about this type of behaviour but I still can’t believe it,” he said.
The only game, played in Casablanca against the local club, ended in a 96-0 victory. The game had been banned by the sports ministry after a request from the MRU and was only allowed to proceed following the intervention of a political contact of the president of the local rugby league club.
The second game against Rabat club Arribatia, was called off an hour before kick-off.
http://www.nospam18.com/rlp-nations...lock-gb-students-rugby-league-tour-of-morocco

 

[madunit]

There is no limit to what RU will go to to try and stunt the growth of RL. Just the latest in a very long line of scum actions:

The Great Britain Student Rugby League Pioneers have returned from an eventful trip to Morocco, where their playing schedule was interrupted by a combination of rugby union intrusion and unavailable facilities.
Head of the FMRL organising committee, Rachid Ouardi, said: ?I want to thank our friends who helped us challenge all the FRMR?s (Moroccan rugby union) attempts to block the tour, and also the Pioneers staff and players for their understanding of our problems and their close support for our attempts to end this discrimination.?
Squad member Mike Butcher left Morocco with a greater appreciation of the opportunities afforded to British rugby league players after experiencing the efforts taken by the Moroccan rugby union establishment to curtail the activities of the fledgling FMRL. ?I?m shocked and angry, I?ve read about this type of behaviour but I still can?t believe it,? he said.
The only game, played in Casablanca against the local club, ended in a 96-0 victory. The game had been banned by the sports ministry after a request from the MRU and was only allowed to proceed following the intervention of a political contact of the president of the local rugby league club.
The second game against Rabat club Arribatia, was called off an hour before kick-off.
http://www.nospam18.com/rlp-nations...lock-gb-students-rugby-league-tour-of-morocco

They've been double booking grounds and that sort of shit since the early days.

It's not the same as joining the NAZI's though is it?

 

[magpie4ever]

There is no limit to what RU will go to to try and stunt the growth of RL. Just the latest in a very long line of scum actions:

The Great Britain Student Rugby League Pioneers have returned from an eventful trip to Morocco, where their playing schedule was interrupted by a combination of rugby union intrusion and unavailable facilities.
Head of the FMRL organising committee, Rachid Ouardi, said: ?I want to thank our friends who helped us challenge all the FRMR?s (Moroccan rugby union) attempts to block the tour, and also the Pioneers staff and players for their understanding of our problems and their close support for our attempts to end this discrimination.?
Squad member Mike Butcher left Morocco with a greater appreciation of the opportunities afforded to British rugby league players after experiencing the efforts taken by the Moroccan rugby union establishment to curtail the activities of the fledgling FMRL. ?I?m shocked and angry, I?ve read about this type of behaviour but I still can?t believe it,? he said.
The only game, played in Casablanca against the local club, ended in a 96-0 victory. The game had been banned by the sports ministry after a request from the MRU and was only allowed to proceed following the intervention of a political contact of the president of the local rugby league club.
The second game against Rabat club Arribatia, was called off an hour before kick-off.
http://www.nospam18.com/rlp-nations...lock-gb-students-rugby-league-tour-of-morocco

This was hinted at before. I proposed that a petition is started (I will definitely sign) that demands that the IRLB takes issues such as this and the Russian example to the World Court for Human Rights etc.

C'mon LJC, get off your arse (whinging) and start doing practical stuff.

 

[The Great Dane]

I see where you are coming from, but LJC never so much as uttered anything that suggested he meant this.

He used this incident as an example to show hiow far RU WILL go to get rid of RL.

When in fact, this case in France was the most extreme case and it was one of French RU, not RU as a whole or as an international body.

The French RU back in that time were as I said, among, if not the worst run amateur sporting organisations in the world. No RU body prior or since has been as bad as that.

If we went back in time, I have no doubt that that French RU would do it again, every single time.

But if you took the Aust RU, NZ RU of that time and gave them that opportunity to side with the NAZI's to eradicate RL I have no doubt that they would not take it.

Apart from the bold fair enough.

We'll never truly know how the ARU, NZRU or any other individual RU would have acted under similar circumstances, we don't know whether they would or wouldn't take that opportunity but considering what we know now that the FRU was willing to take that opportunity gives us a reasonable indication that others would be willing to do the same.

Now don't get me wrong I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that the ARU or the NZRU would have taken that opportunity, but there are defiantly other RU's that I think may have been more then willing to take that opportunity!
Most may not be situated in a part of the world that are as important as France is to RL and RU but that's not the point, the point is that there are certainly RU's out there that would do almost anything to kill RL in their countries and/or keep it out and an attitude of it's all in the past and we should forget about it is a bad idea in my opinion, but the attitude that RU in all forms is bad and we should do everything in our power to remove it is just as bad an idea if not a worse one because that makes us just like them, blinded by hate for something we don't truly understand.

In my opinion it should be treated with a claim caution, as a very unlikely possibility but not an inevitability! I agree with you that the chances of a RU doing something like what the FRU did are next to none but even if the chances are so low I don't think that the RU's history can be ignored because if it is ignored eventually it will certainly repeat it's self!

Though it is nothing compared to the WWII FRU example PR's Moroccan RU example is a perfect example that RU is still willing to try and hinder and maybe even remove RL and that threat should not be entirely ignored or forgotten about.

 

[madunit]

My point in that post was to show how bad the French RU at that time was.

They alienated themselves from the IRB in the 20's for their shambolic organasation. Siding with Vichy was evidence of how bad they were run.

The fact the IRB distanced themselves from the French RU shows to me pretty resoundingly, that other RU bodies wouldn't have sunk to the levels the French RU did.

 

[Perth Red]

I wouldn't put anything past any of them.

 

[The Great Dane]

My point in that post was to show how bad the French RU at that time was.

I understood your point but I'm talking about a bigger picture now, not just WWII France.

They alienated themselves from the IRB in the 20's for their shambolic organasation. Siding with Vichy was evidence of how bad they were run.

The fact the IRB distanced themselves from the French RU shows to me pretty resoundingly, that other RU bodies wouldn't have sunk to the levels the French RU did.

Firstly I would argue that the FRU siding with Vichy was one of the best decisions that the FRU has ever made from a business point of view, from a morals point of view it's the worst thing they have ever done but it shows that the FRU may have been terribly run but there were people there who were very smart and knew how to capitalize on the war.

Secondly I would argue the IRB distanced themselves from the FRU during that time because of the affiliation that the Vichy government had with the Nazis and that they wanted to see the outcome of the war before they were openly affiliated with the FRU again and there for the Vichy government and Nazis, you can bet your arse that had the war gone differently they would have reacted differently.
So it's a hollow action from our point of view since we will never know the real reasons as to why they distanced themselves from the FRU but I'd say that it wasn't for moral reasons because if it was for moral reason after the war they'd have kick the FRU out from under their banner completely and replaced them with a new body to govern RU in France.

No in my opinion and this is just speculation on my part, they distanced themselves from the FRU for product image reasons, they didn't want the world to associate RU with the Nazi party it didn't have anything to do with what the FRU was doing to the FRL if anything they probably would of approved of the FRU removing a competitor, otherwise they would have replaced them like I stated above.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

My point in that post was to show how bad the French RU at that time was.

They alienated themselves from the IRB in the 20's for their shambolic organasation. Siding with Vichy was evidence of how bad they were run.

The fact the IRB distanced themselves from the French RU shows to me pretty resoundingly, that other RU bodies wouldn't have sunk to the levels the French RU did.

They distanced themselves a few years before Vichy didn't they?

And didn't the RFU actually get in contact with the FFR XVII or restart negotiations to play just as the Vichy mob took power, or was it a year or two later? I remember reading something about it in the book, it was so they could build a better relationship with the Brits/french at the time because of war.

I wouldn't put anything past any of them actually.

 

[magpie4ever]

They distanced themselves a few years before Vichy didn't they?

And didn't the RFU actually get in contact with the FFR XVII or restart negotiations to play just as the Vichy mob took power, or was it a year or two later? I remember reading something about it in the book, it was so they could build a better relationship with the Brits/french at the time because of war.

I wouldn't put anything past any of them actually.

You lost me here. What does RFU stand for?

And FFR XVII?

In my days the roman numerals, XVII = 17

From MU's previous posts, the IRB had exiled the French from the international game in the late 20s or early 30s.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

You lost me here. What does RFU stand for?

And FFR XVII?

In my days the roman numerals, XVII = 17

From MU's previous posts, the IRB had exiled the French from the international game in the late 20s or early 30s.

English Rugby Union, and union has XV not XVIII on the pitch, sorry for the mistake :roll:

Have you read the book?