What the NRL needs to do

[flippikat]

With the right backing and support from the NRL Adelaide could support a club tomorrow, it probably wouldn't be a massive success overnight but if that's your standard then you better give up on any expansion plans cause it's an unrealistic standard.

If you are suggesting that Adelaide needs a full juniors system or whatever in place before they can have an NRL team then again you'd better give up on them (and most other expansion areas) cause it's an unrealistic expectation in their case.

Great point. I don't think Melbourne had any great "junior development plan" in the run-up to the Storm's debut season, yet they've managed to carve out a good niche for themselves in the Melbourne sporting market by nailing some early success (1999), followed up by a decent - albeit illegally assembled - dynasty.

There's no reason why Adelaide can't have the same sort of early success, so long as the set-up is right from day 1. I don't mean breaking the cap (Melbourne didn't need to do that in '99), but getting some good talent down there and a quality coach goes a long way.

Expansion teams don't have to be horrible for years before they hit their straps, just look at the Vegas team in NHL Ice Hockey for another example.

 

[Perth Red]

Great point. I don't think Melbourne had any great "junior development plan" in the run-up to the Storm's debut season, yet they've managed to carve out a good niche for themselves in the Melbourne sporting market by nailing some early success (1999), followed up by a decent - albeit illegally assembled - dynasty.

There's no reason why Adelaide can't have the same sort of early success, so long as the set-up is right from day 1. I don't mean breaking the cap (Melbourne didn't need to do that in '99), but getting some good talent down there and a quality coach goes a long way.

Expansion teams don't have to be horrible for years before they hit their straps, just look at the Vegas team in NHL Ice Hockey for another example.

It is a very expensive exercise with no grass roots support or interest generation though. Storm required nearly $5mill a year from NRL for many years, AFL is flushing money away on Suns and GWS. If you've got a rich board or owner or a comp willing to invest then sure you can start a professional club in any sport in any place but it would need a great deal on investment for a long time.

1998- 2008 RL was pretty much dead in WA, its taken ten years of hard work, with not a lot of money and some good fortune of east coasters and Kiwis moving here in the boom, to see a 38k crowd turn up for an NRL event and to have 25 clubs and elite Jnr pathways in place. All good foundations for a future NRL club. Start the work in SA now and next time expansion comes around they will hopefully be ready.

 

[The Great Dane]

The Titans who have been saved by the NRL by financially propping them up for a few years,til they found buyers .You think the Sharks would get propped up now ,under the same circumstances/
The fact also that club is in a city of 550,000 and has an AFL competitor also puts then Titans in a position of being vital to the code.Regardless of all the dramas and ill feeling at one stage in the community due to the Centre of Excellence debacle.

And as for Canberra ,the same situation applies, they are not vulnerable ,even if they had financial issues,becsuae they represent a large area including the Riverina,there is also an AFL presence (GWS) albeit for about 4 matches, and the Brumbies.

So from where I sit it's evident ,I see teams in areas I would feel had a far better chance of long term security ,than Sydney clubs which includes my own.IOW when it comes to influence with the NRL,they are hardly in a position of weakness, for the reasons I outlined.

You are totally illiterate on the problems facing both the Raiders and Titans and by extension the Canberra and GC regions... Which is a perfect example of the total lack of power that both the Raiders and Titans have within the NRL, ARLC, and honestly the media, and the contempt they are treated with by both when it comes to important issues effecting their regions...

PS the Raiders only represent a large area including the Riverina in the minds of a handful of people from Queanbeyan and Sydney...

"And since they were most certainly cheating the cap in 2016",you don't know if that's the case,neither do I,neither does the media .So to justify something by inference ,without evidence,is not right but wrong.
And you cite the Storm ,where it was spelt out, shown, not hinted at.You make comparisons when nothing has been verified for 2016,enter hanging judge.
And guess what I'm being honest.

You're letting your colours rule you mind if you truly believe that...

And given the raiders cap rorting of the 90’s when they were over and winning comps, probably best to leave the 2018 sharks cap issue to someone else who doesn’t have a house with every window broken.

The Raiders "cap rorting of the 90's" consisted of them being over the cap once in the first year that the cap was introduce, the NSWRL agreed that this was because of a misunderstanding of the rules, the Raiders were also the most severely punished for their indiscretion of any club that's been caught cheating the cap bar none, they were fined so heavily that they went from a club in a relatively good place to on the brink of folding (the only reason they didn't is cause they managed to scrape by on public donations and bit of extra help from local government until News came along waving wads of cash around), and our player retention was completely f**ked for the next 15 or so years...

So yeah just like in the case of Russian drug cheating at the Olympics and their punishments maybe you should know what you a talking about before you start talking,

 

[Eion]

You are totally illiterate on the problems facing both the Raiders and Titans and by extension the Canberra and GC regions... Which is a perfect example of the total lack of power that both the Raiders and Titans have within the NRL, ARLC, and honestly the media, and the contempt they are treated with by both when it comes to important issues effecting their regions...

PS the Raiders only represent a large area including the Riverina in the minds of a handful of people from Queanbeyan and Sydney...



You're letting your colours rule you mind if you truly believe that...



The Raiders "cap rorting of the 90's" consisted of them being over the cap once in the first year that the cap was introduce, the NSWRL agreed that this was because of a misunderstanding of the rules, the Raiders were also the most severely punished for their indiscretion of any club that's been caught cheating the cap bar none, they were fined so heavily that they went from a club in a relatively good place to on the brink of folding (the only reason they didn't is cause they managed to scrape by on public donations and bit of extra help from local government until News came along waving wads of cash around), and our player retention was completely f**ked for the next 15 or so years...

So yeah just like in the case of Russian drug cheating at the Olympics and their punishments maybe you should know what you a talking about before you start talking,

I know your pious raiders cheated whilst winning a comp. Something the sharks didnt do. And I also know that Russia fielded one of the largest group of athletes at the 2018 Winter Olympics after the country was found to have engaged in systematic and state sponsored drug cheating. Hit with a feather duster.

So maybe you want to fact check yourself before believing your dopey mate.

 

[The Great Dane]

It is a very expensive exercise with no grass roots support or interest generation though. Storm required nearly $5mill a year from NRL for many years, AFL is flushing money away on Suns and GWS. If you've got a rich board or owner or a comp willing to invest then sure you can start a professional club in any sport in any place but it would need a great deal on investment for a long time.

1998- 2008 RL was pretty much dead in WA, its taken ten years of hard work, with not a lot of money and some good fortune of east coasters and Kiwis moving here in the boom, to see a 38k crowd turn up for an NRL event and to have 25 clubs and elite Jnr pathways in place. All good foundations for a future NRL club. Start the work in SA now and next time expansion comes around they will hopefully be ready.

Yeah this is all true, but in Adelaide's case a top down approach is the only way it's going to happen cause unlike Perth they don't have the luxury of heaps of expats from the East Coast, NZ, and North England to bring RL with them and prop it up if you know what I mean.

Adelaide is a case where heavy investment in the short to mid term is the only way forward, a classic case of short term pain for long term gain.

 

[The Great Dane]

I know your pious raiders cheated whilst winning a comp. Something the sharks didnt do. And I also know that Russia fielded one of the largest group of athletes at the 2018 Winter Olympics after the country was found to have engaged in systematic and state sponsored drug cheating. Hit with a feather duster.

So maybe you want to fact check yourself before believing your dopey mate.

I honestly can't really be bothered cause this whole argument is beside the point that was being made, and frankly that point has been reaffirmed multiple times now...

I will however say that if the Sharks were treated with the same "feather duster" that the Russian where hit with then they never would have won the comp in 2016 cause at the very least half of their team would have been watching from home waiting out their bans, and that at this point Sharks fans must be the most ridiculously one-eyed fans on this forum, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Eion]

I honestly can't really be bothered cause this whole argument is beside the point that was being made, and frankly that point has been reaffirmed multiple times now...

I will however say that if the Sharks were treated with the same "feather duster" that the Russian where hit with then they never would have won the comp in 2016 cause at the very least half of their team would have been watching from home waiting out their bans, and that at this point Sharks fans must be the most ridiculously one-eyed fans on this forum, and I'll leave it at that.

If I was you, I’d leave it at that too. Russia were so harshly dealt with for sustained state sponsored doping that they managed to field the 3rd largest team at the 2018 games. Bigger than Germany, Japan and the host nation.

Talk about one eyed all you like, but the facts are the facts, including the one about the raiders cheating whilst *winning the comp. Should have had it stripped.

 

[The Great Dane]

If I was you, I’d leave it at that too. Russia were so harshly dealt with for sustained state sponsored doping that they managed to field the 3rd largest team at the 2018 games. Bigger than Germany, Japan and the host nation.

Serious question what did you expect them to do, permanently ban Russian athletes from all international competition and from participating in any competition or organisation that is a member of a signatory to WADA? Surely you can see how that might be a problem and a dangerous precedent to set right?

They hit everybody they could hit as hard as they could hit them and suspended Russia for as long as they could pull off without causing an international indecent, what more did you expect of them?

Talk about one eyed all you like, but the facts are the facts, including the one about the raiders cheating whilst *winning the comp. Should have had it stripped.

Maybe the Raiders should have had it stripped, but considering the way that the club was utterly crushed by the sanctions and fines placed on them it probably just would have been added insult to injury anyway if we are honest.

BTW, even if you ignore the 'possible' cap rorting the Sharks were still benefiting from cheating in 2016 if you are honest with yourself...
Cause you know half their team should have been on the sidelines, their coach should have been given a life ban and facing court, the club it's self probably would have folded before 2016 from all the legal debts, etc, etc... If the Sharks got treated the same way that your average drug cheats get treated the last 6 years would have been completely different for the Sharks and surely you know that.

 

[Eion]

Serious question what did you expect them to do, permanently ban Russian athletes from all international competition and from participating in any competition or organisation that is a member of a signatory to WADA? Surely you can see how that might be a problem and a dangerous precedent to set right?

They hit everybody they could hit as hard as they could hit them and suspended Russia for as long as they could pull off without causing an international indecent, what more did you expect of them?



Maybe the Raiders should have had it stripped, but considering the way that the club was utterly crushed by the sanctions and fines placed on them it probably just would have been added insult to injury anyway if we are honest.

BTW, even if you ignore the 'possible' cap rorting the Sharks were still benefiting from cheating in 2016 if you are honest with yourself...
Cause you know half their team should have been on the sidelines, their coach should have been given a life ban and facing court, the club it's self probably would have folded before 2016 from all the legal debts, etc, etc... If the Sharks got treated the same way that your average drug cheats get treated the last 6 years would have been completely different for the Sharks and surely you know that.

They should have banned the Russians from the games, completely.

And if you actually knew your history on the sharks doping scandal, then you would know the players plead guilty to ‘unknowingly taking a prohibited substance’.

That’s a far cry from deliberate cheating and WADA knew this. But you seem only happy to take the same umpires decision when it suits your argument.

 

[Perth Red]

If I was you, I’d leave it at that too. Russia were so harshly dealt with for sustained state sponsored doping that they managed to field the 3rd largest team at the 2018 games. Bigger than Germany, Japan and the host nation.

Talk about one eyed all you like, but the facts are the facts, including the one about the raiders cheating whilst *winning the comp. Should have had it stripped.

Russia didn’t field a team at the Winter Olympics, sheesh.
A more apt comparison would be the sharks not being allowed to play the year after they got found cheating and their clean players being allowed to play for a different club whilst their doped players sat out fir two years.

 

[Perth Red]

They should have banned the Russians from the games, completely.

And if you actually knew your history on the sharks doping scandal, then you would know the players plead guilty to ‘unknowingly taking a prohibited substance’.

That’s a far cry from deliberate cheating and WADA knew this. But you seem only happy to take the same umpires decision when it suits your argument.

Yeh Im sure having needles of unknown substances stuck into you was totally unknowing and innocent on the players parts lol.

 

[Eion]

Russia didn’t field a team at the Winter Olympics, sheesh.
A more apt comparison would be the sharks not being allowed to play the year after they got found cheating and their clean players being allowed to play for a different club whilst their doped players sat out fir two years.

Oh I suppose those 168 athletes have all now got passports for the Olympic Committee. What a dunce you are.

 

[Eion]

Yeh Im sure having needles of unknown substances stuck into you was totally unknowing and innocent on the players parts lol.

That was what they plead guilty to, that’s what ASADA and WADA accepted, after investigating for months. But a dunce from Perth with no rugby league side and not involved in it at all knows better. Lol

 

[taipan]

You are totally illiterate on the problems facing both the Raiders and Titans and by extension the Canberra and GC regions... Which is a perfect example of the total lack of power that both the Raiders and Titans have within the NRL, ARLC, and honestly the media, and the contempt they are treated with by both when it comes to important issues effecting their regions...

PS the Raiders only represent a large area including the Riverina in the minds of a handful of people from Queanbeyan and Sydney...



You're letting your colours rule you mind if you truly believe that...



The Raiders "cap rorting of the 90's" consisted of them being over the cap once in the first year that the cap was introduce, the NSWRL agreed that this was because of a misunderstanding of the rules, the Raiders were also the most severely punished for their indiscretion of any club that's been caught cheating the cap bar none, they were fined so heavily that they went from a club in a relatively good place to on the brink of folding (the only reason they didn't is cause they managed to scrape by on public donations and bit of extra help from local government until News came along waving wads of cash around), and our player retention was completely f**ked for the next 15 or so years...

So yeah just like in the case of Russian drug cheating at the Olympics and their punishments maybe you should know what you a talking about before you start talking,

Rubbish.
Yes you can argue they have less influence/power than the Broncos,Melbourne,Easts,Penrith,Dragons.
But they are not alone in that respect
Rural regions (plural not just yours ) within NSW have issues with the NRL,neglect is one word I'd use.
I can assure you the NRL would not come to the party of either Manly,the Sharks ,if either or both got into financial trouble now.Apart from the fact it would make rationalisation easier for them, and expand.These two areas hold little sway in the corridors of power.

Their influence is less than Raiders and Titans.Just on that basis.You can argue that these places are hardly done by ,some Sydney clubs claim that also, but both are vital in the scheme of things.Because of the presence of their major competitor

The only thing really underpinning the Sharks is their development, the NRL grants that all clubs receive can be handed to others if need be.

They (NRL)have financially assisted to the tune of millions, the Titans ,because they consider that area vital for the game.And the Titan's area of influence is also the Nth Rivers.And Annesley from exec with the NRL and back to that post ,is not going to wield influence.Pull the other one.

And I'm also aware it's not just the Riverina that's covered, but I'm not going to sit here and type in every lil ole town (eg Goulburn)involved under their jurisdiction.Your club has decent League clubs backing, your'e in a vital area, where's the lobbying power?

I remember when Gallop was in charge a few years ago, he found out the AFL got a decent grant from the local Wagga council toward their field from memory.He moaned and groaned because he got left at the starting gate.


And you're not letting your colours (non Shark's) influence making a definitive statement about "cheating in 2016",when actual evidence is yet to be presented.Yeah right.

At this point in time,I have no thoughts either way on 2016 that is yet to be determined
,they(NRL are prioritising 2018 ATM.
It's 2018 where my thoughts are concentrated.The latter will be decided in due course.My reaction will be based on that outcome, not by a poster on a thread.

 

[The Great Dane]

They should have banned the Russians from the games, completely.

Russia was banned from competing in the Winter Olympics, the Russian Olympic Committee didn't field a team at the Winter Olympics, only independently funded Russian athletes that qualified and could prove beyond reasonable doubt that they took no part in the doping were allowed to compete (i.e. mainly Russian athletes that were training overseas or were training independently of Russia's national sports programs).

What you are suggesting is basically that every Russian should have been banned through guilt of association! Surely you can see how that is an unjust standard and frankly a f**king stupid idea...

Using that logic every player connected to the Sharks at all should have been suspended from competition even if they weren't there when the cheating took place and couldn't possibly have taken part in the doping program...

And if you actually knew your history on the sharks doping scandal, then you would know the players plead guilty to ‘unknowingly taking a prohibited substance’.

That’s a far cry from deliberate cheating and WADA knew this. But you seem only happy to take the same umpires decision when it suits your argument.

There is no "unknowingly taking a prohibited substance" rule for them to plead guilty too... When they plead guilty to taking prohibited substances it may have been recognised that they did it unknowingly, but that wouldn't (or rather shouldn't) have effected the ruling unless there were extraordinary circumstances (which there weren't)... Google strict liability...

Look the facts are that they were caught using prohibited substances, the average penalty for that is a 4 year ban (whether or not the player knowingly took the substance or whether of not they took it with the intention to enhance performance or not) the Cronulla players got 3 weeks in the off-season... They got away with it only because of the politicised nature of the event and the time and because Sandor Earl was there to be the sacrificial lamb, they should be thanking their lucky stars that WADA didn't get involved cause if they did take it up and contest ASADA's ruling they'd have been f**ked sideways, luckily for Cronulla a small parochial sport with next to no international footprint like RL wasn't worth their time in this case.

 

[Eion]

Russia was banned from competing in the Winter Olympics, the Russian Olympic Committee didn't field a team at the Winter Olympics, only independently funded Russian athletes that qualified and could prove beyond reasonable doubt that they took no part in the doping were allowed to compete (i.e. mainly Russian athletes that were training overseas or were training independently of Russia's national sports programs).

What you are suggesting is basically that every Russian should have been banned through guilt of association! Surely you can see how that is an unjust standard and frankly a f**king stupid idea...

Using that logic every player connected to the Sharks at all should have been suspended from competition even if they weren't there when the cheating took place and couldn't possibly have taken part in the doping program...



There is no "unknowingly taking a prohibited substance" rule for them to plead guilty too... When they plead guilty to taking prohibited substances it may have been recognised that they did it unknowingly, but that wouldn't (or rather shouldn't) have effected the ruling unless there were extraordinary circumstances (which there weren't)... Google strict liability...

Look the facts are that they were caught using prohibited substances, the average penalty for that is a 4 year ban (whether or not the player knowingly took the substance or whether of not they took it with the intention to enhance performance or not) the Cronulla players got 3 weeks in the off-season... They got away with it only because of the politicised nature of the event and the time and because Sandor Earl was there to be the sacrificial lamb, they should be thanking their lucky stars that WADA didn't get involved cause if they did take it up and contest ASADA's ruling they'd have been f**ked sideways, luckily for Cronulla a small parochial sport with next to no international footprint like RL wasn't worth their time in this case.

You’re an idiot if you think it was because Rugby League is a ‘small sport’ that the sanctions got handed down the way they were. They are far more likely to try to set an example in a backwater than take on the night of Russia...which was why they were able to send the 3rd largest team to the last games despite years of state sanctioned doping.

ASADA was desperate to claim a scalp after the ‘blackest day’ conference and moved heaven and earth to get one. Without that political influence there probably wouldn’t have been any charges, it has the exact opposite impact you suggest it did. Old mate dank was stinking up manly for years before his 10 week stint at Cronulla.

It’s weird, you say so much, and it is all horseshit. How is that possible?

 

[The Great Dane]

Rubbish.
Yes you can argue they have less influence/power than the Broncos,Melbourne,Easts,Penrith,Dragons.
But they are not alone in that respect
Rural regions (plural not just yours ) within NSW have issues with the NRL,neglect is one word I'd use.
I can assure you the NRL would not come to the party of either Manly,the Sharks ,if either or both got into financial trouble now.Apart from the fact it would make rationalisation easier for them, and expand.These two areas hold little sway in the corridors of power.

Their influence is less than Raiders and Titans.Just on that basis.You can argue that these places are hardly done by ,some Sydney clubs claim that also, but both are vital in the scheme of things.Because of the presence of their major competitor

Frankly this is a rambling mess and I'm not sure what you are trying to say, I think you are saying that rural regions have it worse than the e.g. Raiders and Titans, which is a totally separate subject...

The only thing really underpinning the Sharks is their development, the NRL grants that all clubs receive can be handed to others if need be.

I don't see how this is relevant

They (NRL)have financially assisted to the tune of millions, the Titans ,because they consider that area vital for the game.And the Titan's area of influence is also the Nth Rivers.And Annesley from exec with the NRL and back to that post ,is not going to wield influence.Pull the other one.

They couldn't just let the Titans fold, if they did they wouldn't of had 8 games a week to meet their contracts with the broadcasters.

I also don't see how that has any impact on the fact that they have allowed the Broncos (and others tbf) to completely undermine their development programs to the point that they may as well be considered one of the Broncos feeder teams, the fact that they've allowed them to get such little exposure compared to other teams in the mainstream that it's almost impossible for them to attract or maintain a fan-base, the fact that they've allowed third party agreements to get so out of control to the point that a team like the Titans will never truly be competitive except through shear luck cause they are effectively working on a smaller cap than three quarters of the teams in the comp, etc, etc...

Realistically money's got little to do with it.

And I'm also aware it's not just the Riverina that's covered, but I'm not going to sit here and type in every lil ole town (eg Goulburn)involved under their jurisdiction.Your club has decent League clubs backing, your'e in a vital area, where's the lobbying power?

Ahh,what!

The Riverina is not a region covered by the Raiders, it's not one of their markets, as I said before it's only one of their markets in the dreams of a handful of blokes from Sydney and Queanbeyan... Go to the Riverina and see for yourself, the amount for fans of Sydney clubs compared to Raiders fans would be at least 50 to 1 (probably closer to 100 to 1)...
Realistically the only thing that the Raiders do in the Riverina is provide a little help with juniors and local footy and source players from there, it is not and almost certainly never will be a significant source of fans or income for them, same goes for parts of the South Coast and the Southern Highlands .

Goulburn on the other hand is for all intents and purposes a Raiders region.

I remember when Gallop was in charge a few years ago, he found out the AFL got a decent grant from the local Wagga council toward their field from memory.He moaned and groaned because he got left at the starting gate.

Again I'm not sure how this is relevant...

And you're not letting your colours (non Shark's) influence making a definitive statement about "cheating in 2016",when actual evidence is yet to be presented.Yeah right.

At this point in time,I have no thoughts either way on 2016 that is yet to be determined
,they(NRL are prioritising 2018 ATM.
It's 2018 where my thoughts are concentrated.The latter will be decided in due course.My reaction will be based on that outcome, not by a poster on a thread.

I think you are delusional if you think that they were cheating for one year and then were like "yeah that was so last year"...

 

[The Great Dane]

You’re an idiot if you think it was because Rugby League is a ‘small sport’ that the sanctions got handed down the way they were. They are far more likely to try to set an example in a backwater than take on the night of Russia...which was why they were able to send the 3rd largest team to the last games despite years of state sanctioned doping.

ASADA was desperate to claim a scalp after the ‘blackest day’ conference and moved heaven and earth to get one. Without that political influence there probably wouldn’t have been any charges, it has the exact opposite impact you suggest it did. Old mate dank was stinking up manly for years before his 10 week stint at Cronulla.

It’s weird, you say so much, and it is all horseshit. How is that possible?

Your the idiot that hasn't got a a clue what he's talking about, you've consistently got things arse backwards and have been completely wrong about multiple things.

BTW did you Google strict liability?!

 

[Eion]

Your the idiot that hasn't got a a clue what he's talking about, you've consistently got things arse backwards and have been completely wrong about multiple things.

BTW did you Google strict liability?!

Your post was more succinct, which is a start. Still managed to make no sense though.

And it’s *you’re. Brainiac. Look it up on google.

 

[The Great Dane]

Your post was more succinct, which is a start. Still managed to make no sense though.

What about it didn't make sense?

Everything I said in it was factually accurate and pretty straight forward...

And it’s *you’re. Brainiac. Look it up on google.

lol

Spell checking people now... I'm sorry that I didn't have time to proofread that post for you...

BTW, WADA couldn't be bothered with an NRL club or for that matter an AFL club cause they are the World Anti-Doping Agency whose main focus is on things that impact world sport, and RL and the AFL's impact on world sport is minimal at best, at worst it's totally negligible, where as Russia and Russian athletes impact (particularly the Russian Olympic team's) is huge, in the case of Russia they were also under huge pressure from multiple nations and international organisations to put sanctions on them for entirely political reasons, as I'm sure you can see this isn't the case with either an NRL club or an AFL club.

ASADA also weren't desperate to get the "scalp" after the "blackest day" conference, they were desperate to get out of the shit that Labours political stunt had dropped them into as quickly as possible, and by the time that things with Cronulla had come to a head they already knew they had the scalps of Essendon (who got of lightly as well) and Earl in the bag...